SikhInTrinity Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I wouldn't normally write a player off but i just don't think someone as slow as kozak can be a good premiership striker. Teddy Sheringham Peter Crouch Berbatov Carew have all had decent careers in top flight for example and am sure their is plenty more You should have quoted my whole post because all those you mention had other attributes to make up for any lack of pace. What does kozak have to make up for it? Your first point was to say he was too slow, then listed players who weren't the quickest and now your asking what he does have? I think his movement is decent, he can hold the ball up, he can finish. But unlike you I won't write him off just based purely on 3 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted October 29, 2013 Moderator Share Posted October 29, 2013 Yep, in fairness BJ you explicitly cited his speed as the reason he wouldn't succeed, so it's perfectly acceptable to give you examples of slower strikers who succeeded. As for what he does have. He's a bruiser. He's physical. He'll be an asset from crosses, corners and as has been said, he has movement and can hold the ball up and bring others into play while he's still finding his shooting boots. I personally don't think he has Benteke's technique and it's not an insult to him to say he'll never be the player Benteke is. But it's still too early to write him off. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 This might be a novel concept, and bear with me here, but wasn't Helenius bought as a prospect? He even said HIMSELF that he's got more time this season than he ever thought he would. Just because you buy a player doesn't mean you're buying them to play straight away. It's not as black and white as that. True but when on a limited budget, surely the manager should be working on signing players who are ready right now*? We don't have the luxury of being able to sign players who might come good one day given the quality of our squad. *I'm not saying he isn't but clearly Lambert feels this way considering how sparingly he has been used. But if his budget doesn't stretch to that but he can afford a prospect now then I don't see a problem with that. He is building for the long term. I appreciate that but there still has to be some sort of progression in the short-term and it is questionable whether the current squad will acheive this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 I wouldn't normally write a player off but i just don't think someone as slow as kozak can be a good premiership striker. Teddy Sheringham Peter Crouch Berbatov Carew have all had decent careers in top flight for example and am sure their is plenty more You should have quoted my whole post because all those you mention had other attributes to make up for any lack of pace. What does kozak have to make up for it? At Lazio he was good aerially, fairly strong and had quite good movement. I can't think of any other strengths to his game at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) It's ironic really because some of our most important players right now were written off by fans at some stage: Guzan, Delph and Benteke. Even I'll admit to thinking Delph wasn't going to make it this time last year. Edited October 29, 2013 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Nice to see Kozak's been written off already after less than half a dozen games. It happened with James Milner when O'Neill first signed him, and with Downing, and with Ashley Young who was branded a flop in his first half season, and Benteke and Bacuna. I'm sure there are more examples. People collectively never learn, although the odd individual does. Obviously that doesn't mean every signing given time will work out but there are plenty of examples of players written off far too early by the fans going on to prove people wrong. Personally, I think October is more than a little early to be writing off players especially those in their early 20's coming from overseas. I don't remember anyone writing those players off. Stop making things up. Obviously because you don't remember it happening, it didn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffy Biro Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Yes players have been written off before and proved wrong and although i wouldnt write kozak off i think pretty much everyone has seen so far he is a very limited player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Yep, in fairness BJ you explicitly cited his speed as the reason he wouldn't succeed, so it's perfectly acceptable to give you examples of slower strikers who succeeded. As for what he does have. He's a bruiser. He's physical. He'll be an asset from crosses, corners and as has been said, he has movement and can hold the ball up and bring others into play while he's still finding his shooting boots. I personally don't think he has Benteke's technique and it's not an insult to him to say he'll never be the player Benteke is. But it's still too early to write him off. What's most bizarre about his signing is that we buy a player who thrives on crosses yet Lambert plays the most narrow anti winger formation I've ever seen at the Villa. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Nice to see Kozak's been written off already after less than half a dozen games. It happened with James Milner when O'Neill first signed him, and with Downing, and with Ashley Young who was branded a flop in his first half season, and Benteke and Bacuna. I'm sure there are more examples. People collectively never learn, although the odd individual does. Obviously that doesn't mean every signing given time will work out but there are plenty of examples of players written off far too early by the fans going on to prove people wrong. Personally, I think October is more than a little early to be writing off players especially those in their early 20's coming from overseas. I don't remember anyone writing those players off. Stop making things up. Obviously because you don't remember it happening, it didn't happen. You know if you dig around you may just find one or two uninformed fans on here who wrote them off very early, but on the whole every Villa fan I know we're extremely excited to see young players like Milner, Young and co playing for Villa. Saying we wrote them off smacks of you making things up to suit your argument. Please stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Downing was written off, as was Benteke by a few posters and Bacuna was also judged prematurely by some after his poor debut. I wasn't on VT when Milner and Young first signed but knowing this place I don't think it's a stretch to assume that they were written off as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Milner was at the time though wasnt here when Young signed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Downing was certainly written off during his first season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) Nice to see Kozak's been written off already after less than half a dozen games. It happened with James Milner when O'Neill first signed him, and with Downing, and with Ashley Young who was branded a flop in his first half season, and Benteke and Bacuna. I'm sure there are more examples. People collectively never learn, although the odd individual does. Obviously that doesn't mean every signing given time will work out but there are plenty of examples of players written off far too early by the fans going on to prove people wrong. Personally, I think October is more than a little early to be writing off players especially those in their early 20's coming from overseas. I don't remember anyone writing those players off. Stop making things up. Obviously because you don't remember it happening, it didn't happen. You know if you dig around you may just find one or two uninformed fans on here who wrote them off very early, but on the whole every Villa fan I know we're extremely excited to see young players like Milner, Young and co playing for Villa. Saying we wrote them off smacks of you making things up to suit your argument. Please stop it. But you said 'I don't remember anyone writing them off' when you've even admitted some did. I don't have to stop anything, I'm not the one making the point. I'm just laughing at your hypocrisy. And looking at the bolded, and your previous opinions. Na, we've slowly got rid of all the high earners at the club and replaced them with cheap bargain basement stuff. N'zogbia would have been sold if not injured, and as soon as he's fit he'll be off. I don't believe for one minute Lambert's policy is to sign young players in some kind of genius plan that will one day see us shoot up the table. It's because Lerner has lost all interest in the club and want to run it on a shoestring. Time to get real. The club is in trouble. Lerner out! Again, is it 'exciting' or are you against it? Edited October 29, 2013 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 (edited) I'm a bit worried about writing this... I'm not writing him off but at the same time I am certainly entitled to be concerned about what a player might bring to the team, it is also worth noting I have seen positives in Tonev's play so I am not writing people off, just raising concerns. (Please do not twist what I am about to say, if you want to quote me, quote the whole thing). I am not sure I rate Kozak based on what I have seen so far. I can see some good attributes in him but there are others he seems to lack which might be hard to train into him, he is not 19, he is 24 which is a good age for a striker. It is also an age where we should be seeing more of what he will/might become. Saying that, if he has the determination he might improve in the areas I feel he currently lacks, or even still, maybe our chairman will give Lambert the money to put chances on a plate for the player because he looked fairly composed at Norwich. Edited October 29, 2013 by dodgyknees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Downing was certainly written off during his first season. By everyone? I don't think so! He was injured till late November anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Downing was certainly written off during his first season. By everyone? I don't think so! He was injured till late November anyway. You said anyone, not everyone. I don't remember anyone writing those players off. Stop making things up. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Downing was written off, as was Benteke by a few posters and Bacuna was also judged prematurely by some after his poor debut. I wasn't on VT when Milner and Young first signed but knowing this place I don't think it's a stretch to assume that they were written off as well. No one was "written off". You call it as you see it. Kozac may well turn out to be a decent addition, but there's no escaping the fact he's been close to useless since he joined. What's wrong with saying that? Some fans are too precious and hate to see any criticism of players whatsoever. Call it as you see it. You're not being disloyal to criticise. It's only a message board. Downing was certainly written off during his first season. By everyone? I don't think so! He was injured till late November anyway. You said anyone, not everyone. I don't remember anyone writing those players off. Stop making things up. ? Apologies. I mistook you for the original poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Downing was certainly written off during his first season. By everyone? I don't think so! He was injured till late November anyway. Obviously not by everyone but there was certainly a vocal minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Downing was certainly written off during his first season. By everyone? I don't think so! He was injured till late November anyway. Obviously not by everyone but there was certainly a vocal minority. Yes, a minority. Downing was a good player and we knew that when we signed him. Same with Milner and a lesser extent, Young (not as well know back then). Informed Villa fans knew these players had talent and would come good eventually. Kozac is different as few if any know anything about him. His early performances have been close to useless. I don't see why fans shouldn't be allowed to mention this. He may well turn into a good player but at the moment he's dreadful. That's not "writing him off", it's just honestly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcTheObsession Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 On Kozak, I have been very disappointed so far. Doesn't have the strength, aerial ability or power I expected for someone bought to potentially replace Benteke long term. However, lets not forget Lambert scouts players thoroughly before signing then by all accounts so he must have seen performances and attributes that convinced him that Kozak could be effective at this level or he wouldn't have risked 7m on him which is a hell of a lot of money for a club only spending 10-20m a year currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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