stanthemanisgod Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Not at all. And I did read your post and whislt you did identify your proposed targets you did not specifically identify the actual signings he is 'playing russian roulette' with. So I assumed you were criticising all of his signings hence my argument was based on the players that were here when he joined and the 4 you wanted. Yes we do not know what Berbatov is on, just as we don't know what Ireland is on here but it's fair to speculate they're both on a fair whack. we laso do not know what Dempsey would have wanted, all we did was agree a fee with Fulham for a player that would have improved us. Nothing wrong with the odd proven player on a decent wage but we already have a few of those on our books, but I can't see how we could ever afford to have a squad full of players on that type of wages. As for Lambert's prudence in the transfer market, it's a balancing act. I don't know the exact budget he's working too but I think it's safe to assume we would not have seen the same number of players coming in if they were all £40k a week plus players. It's up to him as manager how to balance the books whehter thats 12 player on lower wages, 4 players on high wages or something in between. Also as far as I can tell he has signed 4 players who have been an instant impact on our team, Vlaar now promoted to Captain after 4 games, Lowton who scored in a league victory, Benteke who scored on debut and seemed to have been an integral part of a side that beat City last night, and KEA who looks a composed midfielder who also has a goal to his name. I'm not disputing that Adam, Johnson and Berbatov may have had more of an impact on the quality of our side but our squad was lacking both numbers and quality and in place of those 3 players we manged to get Guzan back, Lowton, Bennet, Vlaar, KEA, Homan(Not lambo I know), Westwood, Benteke and Bowery. I mean I could argue that spunking all the available wage budget on 3 players is playing Russian Roulette becuase if they got injured we'd have nothing but youth players in reserve, but it's all academic untill we know how the season pans out. Just have a bit of faith in a manager who seems to know what he's doing. Your general point as i understand it, was that we can no longer afford quality signings due to their wages. I made two points on that. One was that the chairman made funding available for Lambert to buy more established players which Lambert refused and secondly, we placed a bid for Clint Dempsey. Both those points would fly in the face of your assumption that we can no longer pay the type of wages quality players would expect, but you can carry on as you wish to try and fudge the issue. Secondly i have never stated that we should have a squad full of quality players on 40 grand per week as it is simply not sustainable for our club at the moment but Lambert inherited a poor squad, with a dearth of quality and with the signings i have mentioned, it would have undoubtedly improved us, still allowing Lambert to purchase lower league players but building in and around the players i have mentioned which would have given us more stability rather than gambling on those younger players hitting the ground running. Finally i wasn't suggesting that Lambert should have spent all of his budget on three players. There was probably more funding available to him with the bid for Dempsey as an example to fill both FB positions. Look it's pointless having this debate with you because without the Villa ccounts in front of me, and without knowing what wage budget Lambo is working to neither can prove the other wrong. I just find it difficult to believe that if we had signed Adam, Johnson and Berbatov there's be any room left in the budget for either full back, Westwood, KEA, Bowery and Benteke. Now you may argue with Berbatov we wouldn't need Benteke which is fair enough, or with Adam we wouldn't need KEA. But we'd still be lacking a replacement for Hutton and warnock would most prob still be in the squad. we'd also still be short on numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 For what it's worth I'd have KEA over Adam any day. Maybe even Benteke over Berbatov. Ok Berbatov is quality but he's getting on now and Benteke is more of a long-term purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Not at all. And I did read your post and whislt you did identify your proposed targets you did not specifically identify the actual signings he is 'playing russian roulette' with. So I assumed you were criticising all of his signings hence my argument was based on the players that were here when he joined and the 4 you wanted. Yes we do not know what Berbatov is on, just as we don't know what Ireland is on here but it's fair to speculate they're both on a fair whack. we laso do not know what Dempsey would have wanted, all we did was agree a fee with Fulham for a player that would have improved us. Nothing wrong with the odd proven player on a decent wage but we already have a few of those on our books, but I can't see how we could ever afford to have a squad full of players on that type of wages. As for Lambert's prudence in the transfer market, it's a balancing act. I don't know the exact budget he's working too but I think it's safe to assume we would not have seen the same number of players coming in if they were all £40k a week plus players. It's up to him as manager how to balance the books whehter thats 12 player on lower wages, 4 players on high wages or something in between. Also as far as I can tell he has signed 4 players who have been an instant impact on our team, Vlaar now promoted to Captain after 4 games, Lowton who scored in a league victory, Benteke who scored on debut and seemed to have been an integral part of a side that beat City last night, and KEA who looks a composed midfielder who also has a goal to his name. I'm not disputing that Adam, Johnson and Berbatov may have had more of an impact on the quality of our side but our squad was lacking both numbers and quality and in place of those 3 players we manged to get Guzan back, Lowton, Bennet, Vlaar, KEA, Homan(Not lambo I know), Westwood, Benteke and Bowery. I mean I could argue that spunking all the available wage budget on 3 players is playing Russian Roulette becuase if they got injured we'd have nothing but youth players in reserve, but it's all academic untill we know how the season pans out. Just have a bit of faith in a manager who seems to know what he's doing. Your general point as i understand it, was that we can no longer afford quality signings due to their wages. I made two points on that. One was that the chairman made funding available for Lambert to buy more established players which Lambert refused and secondly, we placed a bid for Clint Dempsey. Both those points would fly in the face of your assumption that we can no longer pay the type of wages quality players would expect, but you can carry on as you wish to try and fudge the issue. Secondly i have never stated that we should have a squad full of quality players on 40 grand per week as it is simply not sustainable for our club at the moment but Lambert inherited a poor squad, with a dearth of quality and with the signings i have mentioned, it would have undoubtedly improved us, still allowing Lambert to purchase lower league players but building in and around the players i have mentioned which would have given us more stability rather than gambling on those younger players hitting the ground running. Finally i wasn't suggesting that Lambert should have spent all of his budget on three players. There was probably more funding available to him with the bid for Dempsey as an example to fill both FB positions. Look it's pointless having this debate with you because without the Villa ccounts in front of me, and without knowing what wage budget Lambo is working to neither can prove the other wrong. I just find it difficult to believe that if we had signed Adam, Johnson and Berbatov there's be any room left in the budget for either full back, Westwood, KEA, Bowery and Benteke. Now you may argue with Berbatov we wouldn't need Benteke which is fair enough, or with Adam we wouldn't need KEA. But we'd still be lacking a replacement for Hutton and warnock would most prob still be in the squad. we'd also still be short on numbers. We didn't need Bowery for a start as we already had Fonz and Weiman and the same could be said about Westwood with us having Delph. I also think our debate was needed from the point of view that you basically implied we could no longer afford to pay the wages of quality players. I disproved your theory by using our bid for Dempsey as an example after already purchasing other players. You still haven't answered my question on that and indeed that says it all really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Let me guess, KEA isn't a quality player to you but Adam is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 In Most cases its...... potential v players on the way out. players on the way out, have no fire in their bellies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swaib2004 Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Morpheus you totally misunderstand lambert and his style of play. He is all about working hard for 90 minutes , how do berbatov and Adam fit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 So the proof that shows that we could afford to sign these players is based around the fact that we made a bid for one of them....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Morpheus you totally misunderstand lambert and his style of play. He is all about working hard for 90 minutes , how do berbatov and Adam fit? I'm actually finding it hard to understand what is the preferred system at the moment with first the passing game implemented and then a move towards more long ball. Maybe he wants us to be able to play both to make us more flexible? In answering your question directly i think 'working hard' is, or should be, a requirement from all managers. Adam has gone to Stoke where they have more than a work ethic have they not. Berbatov's position in a team is more about being offensive than defensive and Fulham brought him in to replace Dempsey, the type of player which would have created chances for Bent. Indeed, the very same role that Keane played for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 So the proof that shows that we could afford to sign these players is based around the fact that we made a bid for one of them....? Unless you are saying that our new manager has the mind set of those at West Ham? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Looking at our fixtures, I sense already that tomorrow is now a must win game. I don't care how we get the 3 points, lovely little triangles or route 1, but let's just bring home the bacon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 I wouldn't have signed Berbatov, what is the point? Huge contract for somebody who might sulk next month or go missing for a period. This is not something we'd benefit from. Let's build something from scratch and maybe find gems like Benteke. I'm warming to this, when weighed up against signing the Harewoods and Beye's this is a better plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Benteke hasn't yet proven he's a 'gem' and its more than a little premature to say that. Berbatov can be a pri-madonna there's no denying that but he's already settled in well at Fulham and I have no doubt he would have done the same here playing for a manager showing faith in him. That's been my point all along in bringing in quality first to stabilize the team while then being able to blood the younger players in and around that stability. It's an awful gamble just to purchase players without Premiership experience and expect them to hit the ground running at a club threatening relegation for the past two seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 I wouldn't have signed Berbatov, what is the point? Huge contract for somebody who might sulk next month or go missing for a period. This is not something we'd benefit from. Let's build something from scratch and maybe find gems like Benteke. I'm warming to this, when weighed up against signing the Harewoods and Beye's this is a better plan.The point seems to be that Lambert is "gambling" with our Premier League future and "playing Russian Roulette" because he didn't sign Berbatov, Adam and Johnson. Apparently anyone who doesn't play in the Premier League can't be that good and is instantly inferior to anyone who does. Benteke hasn't yet proven he's a 'gem' and its more than a little premature to say that. Berbatov can be a pri-madonna there's no denying that but he's already settled in well at Fulham and I have no doubt he would have done the same here playing for a manager showing faith in him. That's been my point all along in bringing in quality first to stabilize the team while then being able to blood the younger players in and around that stability. It's an awful gamble just to purchase players without Premiership experience and expect them to hit the ground running at a club threatening relegation for the past two seasons.You keep on talking about "quality" but I think you mean "Premier League experience" instead. Ok Berbatov is a quality player but there are more players than just him out there. With regards to Adam I think KEA is a lot better anyway and I honestly don't get the Adam hype. Why is it an "awful game" to not purchase Premier League experience? It's not like Lambert's brought in a load of kids with hardly any games. Holman, Vlaar and KEA are all seasoned internationals. Bennett and Lowton while young and from the lower leagues played a lot for their clubs so can hardly be called inexperienced. Benteke is young but he played all last season and is already in the Belgium NT so it's not as much of a gamble as you're making out. This thinking that the only way is to buy Premier League players is what got us into this mess in the first place. Lambert is taking a fresh approach and it's financially sensible too. Honestly don't get the obsession with PL experience on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Benteke hasn't yet proven he's a 'gem' and its more than a little premature to say that. . Agree, ok he scored 1 but he's missed at least 2 absolute sitters Chances that we cannot afford to miss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudevillaisnice Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 This thinking that the only way is to buy Premier League players is what got us into this mess in the first place. Lambert is taking a fresh approach and it's financially sensible too. Honestly don't get the obsession with PL experience on here. Agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 The one worry (although I think worry is too strong a word) that I had, was bedding all of these players in at once, expecting big things with little time. What I didn't expect was the improvement from Gabby, Delph and the more senior ones - who will take the pressure off the new players, whilst they bed in. It had relaxed me a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Today is showing again Norwich are the worst team in the league and Reading aren't far behind. Swansea are slipping as are Wigan but then again they'll probably hit a 10 game winning streak from March. I think this will be a difficult season but far more enjoyable than last as we will win games in style. There are 3 worse teams than us in this league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Yeah cannot argue against that. Although Reading have the finance to bring in more players in Jan. And I think we will also bring some players in come Jan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Reading lack goalthreat and their defence is woeful against pace as we saw against Spus. No way will either finish above us and I'm sure we'll finish above a few more clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Reading beating Newcastle As it sits currently we are 17th ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts