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August Optimism Gauge


maqroll

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Gabby and N'Zogbia are assets are they not. If they're not then our chairman wouldn't be too pleased to hear about that.
Not big assets. I reckon at the moment we'd probably get about £10m-£12m tops. Even then, what if nobody wants to buy them?

Wrong again Mantis. You posted that we were showing ambition by signing Lambert. I rightly argued that your statement was premature in that ambition was not realized yet!
It's all about opinion. Personally I think we are as I think appointing an up and comer is much more ambitious than just appointing a steady plodder. So no, not wrong again.

When GH came to our club were we not in a similar position whereby the team needed a rebuild so you're wrong again.
We'd just finished 6th. Obviously we were never going to replicate that even before Houllier came. Last season we finished 16th. After two poor seasons the profile of the club isn't as high as it once was. We also don't know how much money Randy is willing to back the new manager with, so it's all just speculation at this point as to whether we'd be able to get a "name". Again, not wrong. You need to get out of the habit of doing this. It's petty.

I also haven't said anything derogatory about Lambert. I have however implied what he is, a manager still learning his trade with one season of experience in the Premiership who's appointment can not be seen as one of ambition until he actually proves himself by getting us the required results on a consistent basis. Even though it was a friendly, losing 3-1 to Forest doesn't exactly fill me with confidence.
And he's got bags of potential after doing a fantastic job with Norwich. So what if he's still learning his trade? Everyone has to start somewhere.

What about all those other pre-season wins? It's pre-season FFS. The results don't matter a great deal. If we start losing loads of games or putting in poor performances when the actual season starts then yes I'd understand the lack of confidence.

Finally i'm not responsible for what you think, only what i post, so i would advise you to get over it and move on to a debate that you can actually win.
I think if you have to resort to saying petty things like "move on to a debate that you can actually win" then you're the one that's losing the debate, not me.

In the context of assets you mentioned that it would take 50m to get us to the top six. I disagreed and mentioned the a figure of 30-35 million with the sales of Gabby and N'Zogbia to offset that amount meaning that our outlay would be significantly less than the 30-35 quoted. You were the one who mentioned Bent. I did not.

I didn't say we should employ a 'steady plodder,' so i'll ask the question again which is at the heart of this debate. How can employing a former manager of Norwich who has only spent one season in the Premiership be deemed as a signing which shows ambition? As you say 'everyone has to start somewhere' so he is learning his trade and as of yet, not a signing of ambition. How could he be. At least you have now admitted you are wrong here Mantis.

So GH had no rebuilding to do when he came to our club? Why then was he attracted to our club when you have already stated that we cannot attract a top manager?

Those other pre season wins were in America Mantis. Not anywhere near the quality of teams at home as we've just seen.

Finally you have accused me of 'moaning' so by your own logic you have already lost this debate before i have supposedly made 'petty' remarks.

I'll say it again Mantis no matter which way you try and spin your way out of a whole on this debate, you have lost. Accept it and move on. :winkold:

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In the context of assets you mentioned that it would take 50m to get us to the top six. I disagreed and mentioned the a figure of 30-35 million with the sales of Gabby and N'Zogbia to offset that amount meaning that our outlay would be significantly less than the 30-35 quoted. You were the one who mentioned Bent. I did not.
And as I've already said, there's no guarantee we would be able to sell both of those players for that high a price if at all.

Never said you did mention Bent, I was just pointing out that he's our only big asset that would even come close to the £35m Newcastle got for Andy Carroll (you were the one who brought Newcastle up).

I didn't say we should employ a 'steady plodder,' so i'll ask the question again which is at the heart of this debate. How can employing a former manager of Norwich who has only spent one season in the Premiership be deemed as a signing which shows ambition? As you say 'everyone has to start somewhere' so he is learning his trade and as of yet, not a signing of ambition. How could he be. At least you have now admitted you are wrong here Mantis.
Who cares if he managed Norwich? He did a fantastic job there. All you seem to care about is the here and now, but there is a thing called potential, and Villa is Lambert's first job at a big club. In my personal opinion appointing a young, hungry manager with lots of potential is showing a certain amount of opinion. In your opinion it isn't. Stop with this childish "I'm right you're wrong" shit.

So GH had no rebuilding to do when he came to our club? Why then was he attracted to our club when you have already stated that we cannot attract a top manager?
Don't know if you'd noticed, but that was two years ago. After two poor seasons the profile of the club just isn't as high at the moment. You're really going to have to accept that. Neither of us are Randy Lerner though so neither of us know for sure who is right. Again, this is coming down to opinions.

Those other pre season wins were in America Mantis. Not anywhere near the quality of teams at home as we've just seen.
So? Pre-season results don't actually matter that much. As long as we're performing and getting results come the beginning of the season that's all I care about. No point getting down over a pre-season loss or excited over a pre-season win.

Finally you have accused me of 'moaning' so by your own logic you have already lost this debate before i have supposedly made 'petty' remarks.

I'll say it again Mantis no matter which way you try and spin your way out of a whole on this debate, you have lost. Accept it and move on. :winkold:

Oh here we go with the "I'm right you're wrong" crap again. Seriously, grow up. We're debating opinions here. Stop with the point scoring. Nobody has "won". I don't mind having discussions with people just long as they stick to discussing the actual topic instead of just acting like children and making it into some sort of contest. Again, grow up.
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No there's no guarantee what sort of money we would get for Gabby and N'Zogbia and you will note i have not put a value on them for that reason, however i do believe if both players availability were circulated to other clubs then they would be sold thereby helping the initial outlay i have been speaking about.

Yes you are correct in that i referred to Newcastle which helped to substantiate my point concerning selling players for the greater good of the team and squad which actually proves my point!

The definition of potential Mantis. 'Possible but not yet actual.' Basically backs my point then that Lambert cannot be seen as an ambitious appointment until that ambition is realized. If he is successful here and then moves on, his next appointment will be deemed as ambitious by his new club as he has realized that potential!

Go back to your previous posts in this debate. You stated that we couldn't attract a big name manager. We did in GH!

You are correct in stating that too much attention shouldn't be given to pre-season results but your 'ambitious' appointment hasn't really got off to a flying start has he?

But you haven't stuck with the topic of debate. You have gone off on a tangent when i have questioned you on your assumption that Lambert was an ambitious appointment by the club. Quite clearly that assumption was premature yet you have continually failed to acknowledge that!

As for the rest of your comments, well growing up is a part of life and maybe you have more to do than i.

:crylaugh:

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The definition of potential Mantis. 'Possible but not yet actual.' Basically backs my point then that Lambert cannot be seen as an ambitious appointment until that ambition is realized. If he is successful here and then moves on, his next appointment will be deemed as ambitious by his new club as he has realized that potential!

He was successful at Norwich though, so wouldn't that make his appointment at villa ambitious?

IMO we have signed one of the best young hungry manager's in the country which to me is ambitious.

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No there's no guarantee what sort of money we would get for Gabby and N'Zogbia and you will note i have not put a value on them for that reason, however i do believe if both players availability were circulated to other clubs then they would be sold thereby helping the initial outlay i have been speaking about.
No guarantee of that. Even if we did sell them, I reckon we'd get about £10m-£12m max. This is all just speculation though.

Yes you are correct in that i referred to Newcastle which helped to substantiate my point concerning selling players for the greater good of the team and squad which actually proves my point!
And unlike Newcastle we have nobody to sell for anything close to £35m and I doubt Liverpool are going to be putting in a £35m deadline bid for Bent anytime soon.

The definition of potential Mantis. 'Possible but not yet actual.' Basically backs my point then that Lambert cannot be seen as an ambitious appointment until that ambition is realized. If he is successful here and then moves on, his next appointment will be deemed as ambitious by his new club as he has realized that potential!
You don't have to appoint a proven manager that's already won lots for an appointment to be ambitious. I'm fine that you don't think Lambert is an ambitious appointment, we clearly disagree there, just don't try and pass off your opinion as fact.

Go back to your previous posts in this debate. You stated that we couldn't attract a big name manager. We did in GH!
That was 2010. I've already explained about 5 times what's changed since then.

You are correct in stating that too much attention shouldn't be given to pre-season results but your 'ambitious' appointment hasn't really got off to a flying start has he?
We've won every single pre-season game bar one.

But you haven't stuck with the topic of debate. You have gone off on a tangent when i have questioned you on your assumption that Lambert was an ambitious appointment by the club. Quite clearly that assumption was premature yet you have continually failed to acknowledge that!

As for the rest of your comments, well growing up is a part of life and maybe you have more to do than i.

:crylaugh:

Erm, I'm not the one that's constantly screaming "you're wrong I'm right" when I'm discussing things with people. I'm not the one that can't accept when somebody has an opinion that differs from my own. I found that last part of your post very ironic.
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The definition of potential Mantis. 'Possible but not yet actual.' Basically backs my point then that Lambert cannot be seen as an ambitious appointment until that ambition is realized. If he is successful here and then moves on, his next appointment will be deemed as ambitious by his new club as he has realized that potential!

He was successful at Norwich though, so wouldn't that make his appointment at villa ambitious?

IMO we have signed one of the best

young hungry manager's in the country which to me is ambitious.

There is still a big element of risk in Lambert. This season is a massive test for him as he does not have a very good squad to work with. We have a woefully weak defence and a very poor midfield still.

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The definition of potential Mantis. 'Possible but not yet actual.' Basically backs my point then that Lambert cannot be seen as an ambitious appointment until that ambition is realized. If he is successful here and then moves on, his next appointment will be deemed as ambitious by his new club as he has realized that potential!

He was successful at Norwich though, so wouldn't that make his appointment at villa ambitious?

IMO we have signed one of the best

young hungry manager's in the country which to me is ambitious.

There is still a big element of risk in Lambert. This season is a massive test for him as he does not have a very good squad to work with. We have a woefully weak defence and a very poor midfield still.

That's a problem with the squad though, it would be tough for any manager that come's in. It's annoying that people have a problem with hiring manager's with potential. We cannot hire big name manager's that have won every trophy on the planet so the next best thing is to get someone with that potential.

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I think it could be another tough season unless we bring at least 2 but ideally 3 more players that will be starters to push the likes of Bannan, Albrighton and Gabby to squad players, Ideally a left back, box to box midfielder and a striker with some technique or good in the air to give us an extra option up front. I think Lambert will prove to be a success but it's not going to happen over night, we need players who want the ball and dictate the play, still too many players that hide in this team. Nice positive article I found on twitter http://www.chieffootball.com/index.php/aston-villa-will-roar-again/

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No there's no guarantee what sort of money we would get for Gabby and N'Zogbia and you will note i have not put a value on them for that reason, however i do believe if both players availability were circulated to other clubs then they would be sold thereby helping the initial outlay i have been speaking about.
No guarantee of that. Even if we did sell them, I reckon we'd get about £10m-£12m max. This is all just speculation though.

Yes you are correct in that i referred to Newcastle which helped to substantiate my point concerning selling players for the greater good of the team and squad which actually proves my point!
And unlike Newcastle we have nobody to sell for anything close to £35m and I doubt Liverpool are going to be putting in a £35m deadline bid for Bent anytime soon.

The definition of potential Mantis. 'Possible but not yet actual.' Basically backs my point then that Lambert cannot be seen as an ambitious appointment until that ambition is realized. If he is successful here and then moves on, his next appointment will be deemed as ambitious by his new club as he has realized that potential!
You don't have to appoint a proven manager that's already won lots for an appointment to be ambitious. I'm fine that you don't think Lambert is an ambitious appointment, we clearly disagree there, just don't try and pass off your opinion as fact.

Go back to your previous posts in this debate. You stated that we couldn't attract a big name manager. We did in GH!
That was 2010. I've already explained about 5 times what's changed since then.

You are correct in stating that too much attention shouldn't be given to pre-season results but your 'ambitious' appointment hasn't really got off to a flying start has he?
We've won every single pre-season game bar one.

But you haven't stuck with the topic of debate. You have gone off on a tangent when i have questioned you on your assumption that Lambert was an ambitious appointment by the club. Quite clearly that assumption was premature yet you have continually failed to acknowledge that!

As for the rest of your comments, well growing up is a part of life and maybe you have more to do than i.

:crylaugh:

Erm, I'm not the one that's constantly screaming "you're wrong I'm right" when I'm discussing things with people. I'm not the one that can't accept when somebody has an opinion that differs from my own. I found that last part of your post very ironic.

Where have i stated that we have a 35m player on our hands? Stop fudging the issue Mantis its getting a little boring now.

But my opinion in this case is fact and you just can't accept what you have previously posted is wrong.

You have already previously stated that we couldn't attract a big name manager and you have been proven wrong again when i mentioned GH.

With the quality of opposition in America i don't think being unbeaten there will be very high on Lambert's CV do you?

Reading back on my previous posts i don't think i've been screaming, or acting in a childish way at all and certainly haven't resorted to name calling which in itself is more becoming of being deemed as childish behaviour.

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The definition of potential Mantis. 'Possible but not yet actual.' Basically backs my point then that Lambert cannot be seen as an ambitious appointment until that ambition is realized. If he is successful here and then moves on, his next appointment will be deemed as ambitious by his new club as he has realized that potential!

He was successful at Norwich though, so wouldn't that make his appointment at villa ambitious?

IMO we have signed one of the best

young hungry manager's in the country which to me is ambitious.

There is still a big element of risk in Lambert. This season is a massive test for him as he does not have a very good squad to work with. We have a woefully weak defence and a very poor midfield still.

That's a problem with the squad though, it would be tough for any manager that come's in. It's annoying that people have a problem with hiring manager's with potential. We cannot hire big name manager's that have won every trophy on the planet so the next best thing is to get someone with that potential.

No-ones saying that there is a problem with hiring managers with potential. 'Mantis' clearly stated in one of his posts that the hiring of Lambert as manager was an ambitious move by the club. I have pointed out that this statement was more than a little premature as Lambert's supposed potential has yet to be realized in the Premiership.

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Where have i stated that we have a 35m player on our hands? Stop fudging the issue Mantis its getting a little boring now.
Never said you did, but since we're talking about Newcastle here I thought it was important to mention such a vital detail. They're doing things the right way but they also got a lot of money for Carroll.

But my opinion in this case is fact and you just can't accept what you have previously posted is wrong.
No it's an opinion, as is mine. Stop trying to pass off opinion as fact. It looks ridiculous.

You have already previously stated that we couldn't attract a big name manager and you have been proven wrong again when i mentioned GH.
Can you actually read my posts properly? I said I didn't think we could attract a name manager now. If you hadn't noticed, we got Houllier two years ago. Things have changed since then.

With the quality of opposition in America i don't think being unbeaten there will be very high on Lambert's CV do you?
As I said, I don't really care too much about pre-season results, so I'm not looking too much into all those wins just like I'm not looking too much into the defeat at Forest. You on the other hand wave away all those wins in America (fair enough it is only pre-season) yet focus on the loss at Forest. Strange, but I guess there always has to be something negative to focus on.

Reading back on my previous posts i don't think i've been screaming, or acting in a childish way at all and certainly haven't resorted to name calling which in itself is more becoming of being deemed as childish behaviour.
What, you don't think constantly proclaiming you're right and the other person is wrong over opinions and then telling them they've "lost" is childish?
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No you mentioned Carroll in the same context of costing us 50m to challenge the top six whereby I stated it could be done for less using the sales of Gabby and N'Zogbia to off set that expenditure.

By defination I have proven my opinion is fact. All you have proven is that you cannot admit when your wrong and have lost your temper doing it.

You were still wrong on GB and no amount of spin can cover that up.

Concerning pre season I have focused on the Forest game as it was a very poor result.

As for the other comments you've made concerning personal behaviour anyone reading our debate will see where the insults have come from and I would rather leave it at that and debate with other VTs who are prepared to admit when they are in the wrong. Good luck.

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No you mentioned Carroll in the same context of costing us 50m to challenge the top six whereby I stated it could be done for less using the sales of Gabby and N'Zogbia to off set that expenditure.

By defination I have proven my opinion is fact. All you have proven is that you cannot admit when your wrong and have lost your temper doing it.

You were still wrong on GB and no amount of spin can cover that up.

Concerning pre season I have focused on the Forest game as it was a very poor result.

Ok then, so let's assume we sell Gabby and N'Zogbia for £12m. Where are we going to find the rest of the money from, and who are we going to replace Gabby and N'Zogbia with?

What? How have you proven your opinion as fact? Your opinion is that Lambert isn't an ambitious appointment and my opinion is that it is (to some extent). Neither of those opinions are right. This is what I mean by childish.

How can I be wrong on Houllier when I never denied that we could attract a name manager TWO YEARS AGO? Clearly you're not reading my posts, because I said we couldn't attract a top manager now. Even then, what defines a "name" manager is debatable. It's quite telling how you didn't even bother to respond to my point and just said "you're still wrong".

Why are you focusing solely on that? If we had lost all our American games but beat Forest would you just focus on the Forest game? Somehow I doubt it.

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Your now contradicting yourself further Mantis and while you can't see it, its becoming embarrassing. Let it go man before you self combust. Good luck.
How am I contradicting myself?

Interesting that once again you don't even bother to respond to my points.

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