The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Awol]

The idea that the Hamas dug tunnels into Israel for economic reasons is goebbelesque propaganda. Let's try and at least keep some sensible of balance.

[peterms]

The idea that the Hamas dug tunnels into Israel for economic reasons is goebbelesque propaganda. Let's try and at least keep some sensible of balance.

Did you read it? It's explaining that the tunnels predated Hamas.

It's unchallenged fact as far as I know that the tunnels were dug to get round the blockade. They've been there for years.

What basis do you have for doubting it?

The propaganda, it seems, is the Israeli line. Again.

[omariqy]

Some tunnels do predate Hamas but pretty sure I've seen a video of them building tunnels

[peterms]

Some tunnels do predate Hamas but pretty sure I've seen a video of them building tunnels

I should think the 40 going towards Israel are likely to be their work, and the thousand going to Egypt probably aren't.

The tunnel story is yet again trying to make us all believe Israel faces an imminent existential threat and must therefore use all measures to combat it. Its utter lies.

[snowychap]

One would imagine that tunnels are used by different people for different ends, no?

 

When the Israelis went on about destroying the tunnels, I did wonder why (if they knew where they were - and they'd have to in order to destroy them, surely?) they didn't just park a tank outside each one and fire off a shell whenever someone surfaced.

[TrentVilla]

Well all good tunnels have different ends.

[Xann]

Also, in open ground the Israelis use listening devices to locate where tunnels are running.

 

When they go under the towns and cities it's difficult to pin them down.

[snowychap]

Also, in open ground the Israelis use listening devices to locate where tunnels are running.

 

When they go under the towns and cities it's difficult to pin them down.

So, what you are saying, in essence, is that my suggestion above is, rather than common-sensical tactical brilliance, crassly stupid.

[peterms]

Also, in open ground the Israelis use listening devices to locate where tunnels are running.

 

When they go under the towns and cities it's difficult to pin them down.

Which would mean they could destroy them in open ground, of course. Rather than bomb schools and hospitals. Because its really not a problem to anyone if there are bits of tunnels under Gaza that lead only to a bomb crater, is it?

[Xann]

So, what you are saying, in essence, is that my suggestion above is, rather than common-sensical tactical brilliance, crassly stupid.

 

Wouldn't have put it quite so harshly

 

In the case of civilian casualties, it probably depends on the munition.

 

Tanks are on the ground and respond to what's going on around them, you can see easily how stuff gets blown up that wasn't the intended target.

 

Guided bombs and missiles however, are precise in the majority of cases.

 

It seems likely the Israelis considered what they were hitting, through intelligence and/or sound mapping, was worth the grief the destruction of the buildings on the surface would cause.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Xann

[snowychap]

 

So, what you are saying, in essence, is that my suggestion above is, rather than common-sensical tactical brilliance, crassly stupid.

 

Wouldn't have put it quite so harshly

 

In the case of civilian casualties, it probably depends on the munition.

 

Tanks are on the ground and respond to what's going on around them, you can see easily how stuff gets blown up that wasn't the intended target.

 

Guided bombs and missiles however, are precise in the majority of cases.

 

It seems likely the Israelis considered what they were hitting, through intelligence and/or sound mapping, was worth the grief the destruction of the buildings on the surface would cause.

 

Ah, I don't think that I expressed myself well then.

What I meant was that, if the tunnels start in Gaza and come to the surface in Israeli territory then shouldn't they just sit outside the exit in their territory and take out those leaving the tunnels?

[peterms]

So, what you are saying, in essence, is that my suggestion above is, rather than common-sensical tactical brilliance, crassly stupid.

 

Wouldn't have put it quite so harshly

 

In the case of civilian casualties, it probably depends on the munition.

 

Tanks are on the ground and respond to what's going on around them, you can see easily how stuff gets blown up that wasn't the intended target.

 

Guided bombs and missiles however, are precise in the majority of cases.

 

It seems likely the Israelis considered what they were hitting, through intelligence and/or sound mapping, was worth the grief the destruction of the buildings on the surface would cause.

Yes. But the problem for many people is that they considered it worthwhile not for a valid military reason, but because they wish to punish and terrorise Palestinians until they run away and give the land to the Israelis.

Oh, and also the reserves of gas that come with that. Nearly forgot that minor point.

[Xann]

What I meant was that, if the tunnels start in Gaza and come to the surface in Israeli territory then shouldn't they just sit outside the exit in their territory and take out those leaving the tunnels?

 

Expect they would where circumstances allow, but forks, fissures, underground waterways and sewers will confuse the matter. Plus, If a tunnel has no movement in it it's effectively invisible.

 

 Yes. But the problem for many people is that they considered it worthwhile not for a valid military reason...

 

There probably is a military case for a lot of the attacks, but that's just it, they're ignoring the other consequences of their actions.

 

I expect that some hotheads in the IDF also consider it a bonus to take out a few bystanders.

[Glarmorgan]

1. The tunnels dug from Gaza to Israel were not entirely known to Israel. At the beginning of the operation, it was estimated there are 15-20 tunnels. Then the forces discovered more, to the total of 32 tunnels. 

 

2. Even if Israel knew of all the tunnels, it is not practical to sit next to each exit hole waiting for someone to get out. Leave the "who is right" debate aside for a second - if you know there is an imminent threat, you can't just wait for it to happen and deal with it only then. Beside - the tanks guarding the exit holes are manned by human beings. Human beings tend to lose focus, make mistakes and so on. I remind you of the Shalit incident - he was in a tank, but 100% of the tank crew decisions were wrong. They fell asleep. When heard gunfire - the two jumped out of the tank and got shot. Shalit came out of the tank unarmed and so on.

 

3. At the end, and unlike what PeterMS might think, there are civilians in Israel. No just soldiers. These civilians find it hard to run normal lives when they know of exit holes 2-5 km from their homes, when it is clear these tunnels were dug for terror purposes. This is why the tunnels had to be dealt with.

 

4. There is a huge difference between the tunnels in Sinai and the ones in Israel. As the ones in Sinai were dug for financial issues - they were not hidden, most were dug with the full agreement of the previous Egyptian regime (both Mubarak and Mursi) and the traffic to these holes were in the open. The tunnels to Israel were different and due to the fact they were planned to different purpose - they were planned differently, with a lot of intersection, a lot of exit holes in Gaza (to allow entrance from different locations and so on). There is a complete underground city which had to be dealt thoroughly.

 

5. Despite the Israeli army efforts - there is still no solution to prevent the Hamas from digging tunnels. All sorts of solutions were brought up, from digging a deep ditch to flood the area with sea water. In the end - nothing happened and the defensive actions were focused on monitoring the region, trying to locate movement.

One of the reasons for this was the lack of understanding of how huge this project was. Most of the funds were directed towards the Iron Dome and the rest of the anti-rocket weapons. I guess that funds to finance this project will be made available soon, hopefully preventing these terror tunnels in the future.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

6. just saw this in the NY times website - it seems a booklet was found in Gaza, explaining the importance of civilian casualties to the cause of Hamas. Don't know if that's true - but here's a link: http://nypost.com/2014/08/05/hamas-manual-details-civilian-death-plan-israel/

[Voinjama]

I kinow this thread was started a while ago but what happened or was happening in Tunisia. I was under the impression it was one of the more stable countries in this region. 

[snowychap]

Beside - the tanks guarding the exit holes are manned by human beings.

So there are tanks sat outside the exits of the tunnels?

[Glarmorgan]

 

Beside - the tanks guarding the exit holes are manned by human beings.

So there are tanks sat outside the exits of the tunnels?

 

 

No... tanks are usually positioned in defensive stands around Gaza. As you must recall - I explicitly wrote that not all exit holes were known (Hamas managed to sneak a couple of squads through them during the last weeks) and all in all - even if the IDF was to go with your "tank next to exit hole" solution - this was not practical due to the human being stationed in this tank.

 

Come on - give me some slack here. I am trying to hold this in English and even if I glitch every once in a while - try to overlook it and get the general idea instead.

 

Beside - tank warfare cannot work like this. The entire combat perception of the tank forces if Israel is mainly built on movement and accuracy. Not on static defensive positions.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Glarmorgan

[MakemineVanilla]

 

 

Beside - the tanks guarding the exit holes are manned by human beings.

So there are tanks sat outside the exits of the tunnels?

 

 

No... tanks are usually positioned in defensive stands around Gaza. As you must recall - I explicitly wrote that not all exit holes were known (Hamas managed to sneak a couple of squads through them during the last weeks) and all in all - even if the IDF was to go with your "tank next to exit hole" solution - this was not practical due to the human being stationed in this tank.

 

Come on - give me some slack here. I am trying to hold this in English and even if I glitch every once in a while - try to overlook it and get the general idea instead.

 

Beside - tank warfare cannot work like this. The entire combat perception of the tank forces if Israel is mainly built on movement and accuracy. Not on static defensive positions.

 

 

What are the practical difficulties of just filling the exit holes with say expanding foam and concrete?

[colhint]

I would guess some are booby trapped

[Glarmorgan]

 

 

 

Beside - the tanks guarding the exit holes are manned by human beings.

So there are tanks sat outside the exits of the tunnels?

 

 

No... tanks are usually positioned in defensive stands around Gaza. As you must recall - I explicitly wrote that not all exit holes were known (Hamas managed to sneak a couple of squads through them during the last weeks) and all in all - even if the IDF was to go with your "tank next to exit hole" solution - this was not practical due to the human being stationed in this tank.

 

Come on - give me some slack here. I am trying to hold this in English and even if I glitch every once in a while - try to overlook it and get the general idea instead.

 

Beside - tank warfare cannot work like this. The entire combat perception of the tank forces if Israel is mainly built on movement and accuracy. Not on static defensive positions.

 

 

What are the practical difficulties of just filling the exit holes with say expanding foam and concrete?

 

 

Since these tunnels are very long,with a lot of junctions, even if we'll seal the exit hole - nothing can prevent them from going back a couple of yards, making a left or right turn and dig another exit hole. 

In addition - on several occasions, exit holes were revealed only after the explosion of the tunnel.