The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Eames]

 

Sanity? The deliberate shelling of schools and hospitals that the Israeli's KNOW are packed with women and children is not sanity. Its genocide.

 

 

No, it is certainly not genocide... but genocide is the stated aim of Hamas as written in their own charter.  Your finger is pointing in the wrong direction.

 

I also object to your use of the word 'deliberate'.  How can you know that?

 

Hamas are not the issue here. As stated above Hamas is the problem of Isreal's own making. If Israel had bothered to work with the PLO and Arafat they would not now be in the situation they're in.

 

How can I know such attacks are deliberate - simple. The Israeli Army is one of the best equipped, best trained and best organised military's in the world. They would certainly hand HM's own armed forces their arses to them. Such a military operation cannot possibly be so utterly inept as to launch mortars, shells and air to surface missles into civilian areas "by accident".

 

I would also stronly aruge they are fully aware of the basic fact that the best way to kill a Hamas militant in a cellar without killing everyone else in the building is to put a bloke in the same building with a gun. Flattening the building with an F16 or long range tank shell whilst undeniably effective is morally repugnant. The Israeli's are fully aware civilians will die, and they simply don't care.

[A.J.Rimmer]

After a life of almost perfect health, I spent 38 days in hospital this year.  To my surprise, I now find I have a very definite physical reaction when I see, or even hear of, any human suffering.  Perhaps I should post this on another thread, as I’m curious to know if anyone else experiences such excessive physical empathy... perhaps previously, I was just a heartless bastard... I really don’t know.

 

To a much lesser degree than recently, I have always felt this when children were involved, either through illness, injuries or hunger.  It is truly heartbreaking to see those beautiful little children suffering, be they in Gaza, Syria or Southern Sudan... whilst I have always been so lucky.

 

Yet the fact remains, the suffering of Gaza, Syria and Southern Sudan are not caused by the CIA, the Zionists or even that arch devil, Mrs Thatcher. 

These children are all suffering as a result of corrupt, dictatorial, murderous leadership... without whose destruction, there is really no hope for today’s children, or the children who follow them.  

 

Truly, I do not wish to see more suffering, but this is a job Israel must finish... just as we finished in 1945, rather than stopping short as we did in 1918.

[lapal_fan]

If you knew what today's military equipment is capable of, you'd know that any building filled with civilians would absolutely be known by anyone firing a projectile at it.

 

Israel's military have UAV's, sophisticated sonar/radar/mapping/satellite equipment and would be scoping out where they land their rockets, which can land within a zone of 2 meters.

 

From the Israeli point of view, there CANNOT be civilian accidental casualties - they are all known.  

 

That said, they can get out of this by saying, we didn't use our equipment to identify targets, in which case they are purposely NOT using it, in order to inflict damage to innocent targets.

 

Ricky Gervais makes jokes about the Falklands, saying the war was akin to a tall man holding a midget by his head to keep the midget from hitting the tall man.

 

Well this war, is akin to a giant stepping on an ant.

[Eames]

 

. 

These children are all suffering as a result of corrupt, dictatorial, murderous leadership... without whose destruction, there is really no hope for today’s children, or the children who follow them.  

 

This could easily be applied to Israel.

[bickster]

These children are all suffering as a result of corrupt, dictatorial, murderous leadership... without whose destruction, there is really no hope for today’s children, or the children who follow them.  [

C'mon a a few posts ago, you argued that Israel was a liberal democracy, make your mind up.

[DanishVillan]

 

[omariqy]

Am I mistaken but weren't Hamas voted in?  Hamas are vile but are not the cause of this conflict.  Israel was stepping on Palestine long before Hamas came into play. 

 

I don't want to go into a whole debate about democracy but there is no such thing.  It is a fallacy used by governments to wage war.  Protect our freedom and our democracy and right to free speech?  Poppycock.  We need to wake up and realise we don't have any of those things.

 

However, I do agree with some of your points AJ.  The arab world is corrupt and full of leaders of factions that are hell bent on violence and power. 

[A.J.Rimmer]

 

We managed in Northern Ireland - a situation with broadly similar issues. It took time and it wasn't easy but it worked.

 

 

The solution is you work with the reasonable moderates and create a climate where the situation for EVERYONE can improve, by doing so you a) cut off the recruiting process for further militants and make the nutters far more conspicuous. Along side this you also use targetted military intervention on the ground to round up the loonies.

 

What you don't do is respond to every cheap home made bottle rocket with a full scale military intervention.

 

 

 

Fair point... and I confess I was amazed they found sufficient common ground in Norther Ireland.

 

I don't know how relevant a point this is, but as I understand it the British government indicated to the IRA that Northern Ireland was not an entity to which they were ideologically committed... and that if the province voted to join the republic... that would be fine.  I think the IRA used this to save face and give up a fight which they were clearly losing.

 

We should also remember the intransigence of successive Westminster governments had pretty much defeated the IRA... and the IRA knew it.  Also, by the end of the troubles, the protestants were killing catholics twice as fast  as catholics were killing protestants... and though no one admits it, the protestants were pursued with much less vigour than the IRA, who were fast running out of options.

 

Back to Israel... we might start by Hamas dropping the total destruction of Israel from their stated aims.  Perhaps this might, given time, encourage Israel to make concesions... but finding moderates in Gaza is no easy matter... before they start talking to anyone, Hamas will most probably murder them.

 

This is not a propaganda point... it is a simple fact with which we must contend.

[A.J.Rimmer]

 

These children are all suffering as a result of corrupt, dictatorial, murderous leadership... without whose destruction, there is really no hope for today’s children, or the children who follow them.  [

C'mon a a few posts ago, you argued that Israel was a liberal democracy, make your mind up.

 

 

I assume this is a not very clever shot at semantics... Israel is a liberal democracy.  They put their corrupt politicians in prison.  They are clearly not a dictatorship and they do not murder their own people. 

 

Try answering this: did five and a half million Germans die because they fell out with that famously corrupt, dictatorial and murderous fellow, Neville Chamberlain... or did they die because they were so stupid they allowed a fellow called Adolf Hitler to take control of their government? 

 

You're a brainy fellow... try to work it out.

[omariqy]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/12/israel

 

 

Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto

· Shift comes in lead-up to Palestinian election
· Commitment to armed struggle remains

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• Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
• The Guardian, Thursday 12 January 2006

Hamas has dropped its call for the destruction of Israel from its manifesto for the Palestinian parliamentary election in a fortnight, a move that brings the group closer to the mainstream Palestinian position of building a state within the boundaries of the occupied territories.

The Islamist faction, responsible for a long campaign of suicide bombings and other attacks on Israelis, still calls for the maintenance of the armed struggle against occupation. But it steps back from Hamas's 1988 charter demanding Israel's eradication and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place.

The manifesto makes no mention of the destruction of the Jewish state and instead takes a more ambiguous position by saying that Hamas had decided to compete in the elections because it would contribute to "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem".

The shift in emphasis comes as Hamas finds itself under pressure from the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, and from foreign governments to accept Israel's right to exist and to end its violence if it wants to be accepted as a political partner in a future administration.

The group is expected to emerge as the second largest party after Mr Abbas's Fatah in the next Palestinian parliament. Opinion polls give it more than a third of the popular vote, built on a campaign against Fatah's endemic corruption and mismanagement and failure to contain growing criminality, and by claiming credit for driving the Israeli army and settlers out of Gaza.

But the manifesto continues to emphasise the armed struggle. "Our nation is at a stage of national liberation, and it has the right to act to regain its rights and end the occupation by using all means, including armed resistance," it says.

Gazi Hamad, a Hamas candidate in the Gaza Strip, yesterday said the manifesto reflected the group's position of accepting an interim state based on 1967 borders but leaving a final decision on whether to recognise Israel to future generations.

"Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist," he said. "We cannot give up the right of the armed struggle because our territory is occupied in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. That is the territory we are fighting to liberate."

But Mr Hamad said the armed resistance was no longer Hamas's primary strategy. "The policy is to maintain the armed struggle but it is not our first priority. We know that first of all we have to put more effort into resolving the internal problems, dealing with corruption, blackmail, chaos. This is our priority because if we change the situation for the Palestinians it will make our cause stronger.

"Hamas is looking to establish a new political strategy in which all Palestinian groups will participate, not just dominated by Fatah. We will discuss the negotiation strategy, how can we run the conflict with Israel but by different means."

Ghassan Khatib, a Palestinian cabinet minister and member of the secular Palestinian People's party, said he believed Hamas was being forced to face reality as it prepared to sit in parliament, and that it would have to embrace a negotiated settlement with Israel: "Having Hamas inside the system is a positive development whereby they have to abide by the rules of the majority and respect the arguments of the administration they are part of, which includes a state built on 1967 borders. It will take time but Hamas will no longer have their own militia. It will be solely a political force."

But Israel's security establishment predicts that if Hamas does as well as expected in the election it will damage the Palestinian Authority and further undermine the prospects for an agreement.

 

[A.J.Rimmer]

 

 

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These children are all suffering as a result of corrupt, dictatorial, murderous leadership... without whose destruction, there is really no hope for today’s children, or the children who follow them.  

 

This could easily be applied to Israel.

 

 

As per PMQ's...  I refer you to my previous answer.

[Risso]

 

 

Tbh I can only see this going one way and it is not good. World War 3. Muslim countries will eventually get the leaders the population want. When they do there will be a massive cry to stop Israel doing what they are doing or act as a deterrent.

Te hilarity of this comment knows no bounds. WW3

WW3 might be a bit of an overblown description, but a very serious regional conflict is definitely in the post.

Syria and Iraq have effectively ceased to be as unitary states and will not be coming back to pre Arab spring borders. The ramifications of this could easily drag in neighbouring countries like:

-Turkey (until recently a sponsor of ISIS in Syria, ruled by an autocrat who is altogether too Islamic in outlook and ripe to get popped by the army),

-Iran (already engaged in Iraq and backing multiple non state actors in other conflicts - sometimes more than one side in the same fight),

-Jordan, (with a weakening state)

-Saudi (much wobblier internally than it appears from the outside),

-Yemen (a failed state in all but name with a population of 25 million, 60 million plus weapons in public hands and a decade or less of fresh water),

-Lebanon (weak and divided in a shitty neighbourhood with a Hezbollah AND AQ shaped problem),

-Qatar (a piss pot fly blown gas bubble, seemingly intent on infuriating everyone and getting close to being slapped hard),

-Israel (a serial abuser of the Palestinians, at the zenith of its regional power but stoking up existing hatreds to epic levels through its current enthusiasm to murder innocent kids),

-Egypt (back under the military thumb, for now, up for a ruck),

-Libya (gone as a unitary state and without any functioning government)

-more besides.

Trying to predict exactly how all of those variables overlain with religious, nationalistic and tribal loyalties might play out is nigh on impossible, but there is a gradual and palpable ratcheting up of tension that isn't getting chance to recede before the next incremental raise.

That's where the WW1 comparison stands up IMO, i.e. An unforeseen event (assassination of the Saudi king, a WMD attack by state actors or proxies of, etc.) could send things spinning totally out of control. Given global dependence on the region for energy supplies the scope for first world nations to rapidly be sucked in to a conflagration can't be discounted.

Should we be worried? Well throw in a rabidly expansionist Russian regime under Putin, an EU with underlying economic fundamentals that are unsustainable and hugely destabilizing in the medium term (sustained 50% youth unemployment in club med is very dangerous), weak states in the Sahel and Mahgreb regions of Africa suffering major insurgencies etc... then yes, things are looking pretty serious.

A great indicator of how people are thinking is the fact that ammunition producers in Europe and the US are running at full tilt....and none of it is being exported. That's unusual.

People paid to think about this stuff see very big trouble on the horizon, and frankly it's hard to disagree.

 

 

Let's just carpet bomb the entire region and start again.

[A.J.Rimmer]

Am I mistaken but weren't Hamas voted in?  Hamas are vile but are not the cause of this conflict.  Israel was stepping on Palestine long before Hamas came into play. 

 

I don't want to go into a whole debate about democracy but there is no such thing.  It is a fallacy used by governments to wage war.  Protect our freedom and our democracy and right to free speech?  Poppycock.  We need to wake up and realise we don't have any of those things.

 

However, I do agree with some of your points AJ.  The arab world is corrupt and full of leaders of factions that are hell bent on violence and power. 

 

Yes, Hamas were voted in... like Hitler... but they will not easily be voted out... like Hitler.  Sadly democracy is no guarantee of making smart decisions... but to paraphrase many who went before me... it is the least unpleasant form of government.

 

As for Israel having had their foot on Palestine... yes, you are quite right and in some, even many, respects that is very true.

 

But not all the rights are on the side of Palestinians... there are also features of this conflict where right, if one can determine such a thing, is on the side of the Israelis.

 

The problem is that if we trudge back through the history... where does it all end?  That really would be a waste of time.  As I said above, we have to make the best of the situation history has left us. 

 

 

It seems only reasonable to accept that Israel is now an entity which the world should accept.  The alternative, and I remember David Owen saying this in the early 90's about Yugoslavia, is to fight it out and see who wins.

 

Who knows?  That may be the best solution... just don't fecking cry when they lose... either of them.

[Ads]

 

 

Sanity? The deliberate shelling of schools and hospitals that the Israeli's KNOW are packed with women and children is not sanity. Its genocide.

 

 

No, it is certainly not genocide... but genocide is the stated aim of Hamas as written in their own charter.  Your finger is pointing in the wrong direction.

 

I also object to your use of the word 'deliberate'.  How can you know that?

 

How can I know such attacks are deliberate - simple. The Israeli Army is one of the best equipped, best trained and best organised military's in the world. They would certainly hand HM's own armed forces their arses to them. Such a military operation cannot possibly be so utterly inept as to launch mortars, shells and air to surface missles into civilian areas "by accident".

 

 

 

I doubt it. Be careful not to fall into a trap that the Israeli command often falls into. The IDF are very well equipped, but an over reliance on an espirt de corps and piss poor leadership amongst their mid-ranking officers saw them come a cropper in the Lebanon when they walked straight into Hezbollah's pretty sophisticated defence net and got a kicking for their trouble.

 

It's only really cricket when the other side have a chance of shooting back and Hezbollah are no mugs. Just ask the IDF.

 

To go back to Awol's informative synopsis on the Middle East, we have Hezbollah to partly thank for ISIS and their success against the Iraqi Army. I read one US commanders evalution that when theey faced them in Iraq, they were good at car bombs, but when it came to infantry, they were only good at filling body bags. Thanks to time duking it out with Hezbollah in Syria they have actually learnt a thing or two.

[A.J.Rimmer]

 

Hamas are not the issue here. As stated above Hamas is the problem of Isreal's own making. If Israel had bothered to work with the PLO and Arafat they would not now be in the situation they're in.

 

How can I know such attacks are deliberate - simple. The Israeli Army is one of the best equipped, best trained and best organised military's in the world. They would certainly hand HM's own armed forces their arses to them. Such a military operation cannot possibly be so utterly inept as to launch mortars, shells and air to surface missles into civilian areas "by accident".

 

I would also stronly aruge they are fully aware of the basic fact that the best way to kill a Hamas militant in a cellar without killing everyone else in the building is to put a bloke in the same building with a gun. Flattening the building with an F16 or long range tank shell whilst undeniably effective is morally repugnant. The Israeli's are fully aware civilians will die, and they simply don't care.

 

 

Working with Arafat was no easy matter...and the Israelis tried.

 

As for the Israeli military... yes, they are good... but the Israelis have no 'fail safe' mechanism.  The iron dome is great, but far from perfect.  Hamas insurgents still come through the tunnels and kill Israeli civilians... deliberately! 

 

I'm not sure of the latest count, but Israel aslo has some 50 dead... and they didn't die of old age.

 

There is also such a thing as the fog of war... things happen which were unintended... and for sure there have been instances of Israeli soldiers deciding to take out some Gazan civilians, just because they felt like it... perhaps they had just lost some of their mates.  This does not make it right... it is wrong... but it is also war... and whatever the instructions of the Israeli government, some soldiers will break the rules.  It always happens.

[bickster]

These children are all suffering as a result of corrupt, dictatorial, murderous leadership... without whose destruction, there is really no hope for today’s children, or the children who follow them.  [

C'mon a a few posts ago, you argued that Israel was a liberal democracy, make your mind up.

 

I assume this is a not very clever shot at semantics... Israel is a liberal democracy.  They put their corrupt politicians in prison.  They are clearly not a dictatorship and they do not murder their own people. 

 

Try answering this: did five and a half million Germans die because they fell out with that famously corrupt, dictatorial and murderous fellow, Neville Chamberlain... or did they die because they were so stupid they allowed a fellow called Adolf Hitler to take control of their government? 

 

You're a brainy fellow... try to work it out.

Clearly my post was situated in a Palestinian School

[bickster]

I'm not sure of the latest count, but Israel aslo has some 50 dead... and they didn't die of old age.

56 to 1350 and every single one of the 56 died invading another country not learning maths or playing on a beach or sheltering from bombs

[Glarmorgan]

AJ, I am with you

 

Everyone here keeps analyzing the situation through the nice, liberal, progressive European eyes. Let's just give the Palestinians what they want - and peace shall come. The dichotomous division between the "Good" Palestinians and the "Bad" Israelis. This, quite frankly, ceased to amazed me as it is very easy to talk from afar. Sitting in Birmingham, London or Hartlepool, thinking you know everything there is to know and the key for solving this puzzle is in your hands.

 

Unfortunately, the Hamas thinks otherwise. Hamas know they cannot win this from the military aspects. They know Israel will win any confrontation. Still, they can win when it comes to propaganda and "Human rights" and "world opinion". Their way to win is to show as many civilian casualties as possible - and browsing through recent posts here shows how right they are in their assumption.

 

1. As AJ brought up - not one here came up with a solution to deal with Hamas's strategy of using civilians as human shields. The "Command and Conquer" talks about Israel's abilitiy to hit a single target within a packed building is bollocks. If the way is to send 40 snipers and losing 25 of them just to avoid civilian casualties - this solution is bollocks. Israel asked civilians to draw back. Hamas prohibited this, declaring anyone leaving his house - will lose it. So, here's a situation - a rocket is launched from within a populated area. What should the IDF do? Leave it be?

 

2. Talking of Hamas as a democracy... it was published that 20 Gazans went to demonstrate against Hamas yesterday (or was it two days ago?). The result was simple and brutal - public execution, on the spot.

 

3. Israel and Hamas agreed a 72 hours ceasefire of 8:00 this morning. Hamas used this ceasefire as a diversion and, as it seems, kidnapped and Israeli soldier during a surgical attack (still unsure whether dead or alive). I wish to emphasis - the UN and US requested these 72 hours for humanitarian purposes, which will allow the Gazans to recover a bit and for the delegations of both sides to try and achieve a long-term ceasefire in Egypt. The Hamas through that to the wind, kidnapping a soldier which, as they knew, will bring in a devastating response from the IDF. Wasn't it in Hamas' best interest to stop the "massacre of innocent civilians"? So how come they picked this specific act of aggression?

 

4. The ones talking about "only if Israel negotiate with PLO and Arafat" I wish again to remind that Ehud Barak, Israeli prime minister, offered Arafat a Palestinian state on 96% of the occupies territories. Arafat refused and initiated the second Intifada.

 

5. For whom it may concern - the PLO inception was in 1964. Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. 

 

6. So, Israel invaded Gaza. Why? For kicks? To collect blood for Matzas? 

[omariqy]

Since this supposed ceasefire began 11 Palestinians have been killed. 45 injured. This is from 800 attacks. You forgot to mention that.

Also propaganda wise. Did I dream the IDF twitter account giving play by play commentary

[omariqy]

And why not 100% of the ooccupied territories. If a guy occupied my house and said fair is fair you can have it back but not your master bedroom. I would be pissed.