Houllier: Back him or sack him?

[sellyoakvilla]

S.Ireland never wanted to leave City...

http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/clubfootball/news/newsid=1063765.html

Pretty sure Milner never wanted to leave Villa too. Or Barry.

[Big_John_10]

When have I ever used pre season as an excuse? It's obvious he's changed the tactics and the way the team play but why do you think MON left. This was always going to happen, we were on the slide from the Carling Cup final last season and it was not going to change unless massive investment was made.

Using our form after the cup final as evidence that we were going to be in the relegation zone, 1 point off the bottom and 1 goal off the worst goal difference is one of the stupidest things I've read.

[John_Lerwill]

And tbh, if he was in any way a decent manager why aren't players coming out and backing him up?.

Perhaps they think too much of themselves and/or they had too much of an easy time under MON?

I agree with a lot of the things you've said John and can see your points to argue a case for Houllier. However, do you not think it would have been better for him to see what was going on and then deal with it at a more timely point in the season, namely now and in the summer?

My concern is that he has done too much damage too soon and that he won't be able to get enough players in/out to make the atmosphere that much better for him to get the players on side enough to fight their way out of this.

I guess our season rests in the hands of the players and their relationships with the manager. If the stories are true and the damage can't be repaired, I really feel that we could go down. They don't have clauses in their contracts so why would they be too concerned? They go down and they still get their normal salaries whilst playing against the likes of Sheff Utd, Doncaster and Coventry. If we sell them it will have to be on the cheap and other clubs will pay them what they want because of the nature of the transfer fee. The pressure is all on the management and that's what worries me.

I don't neccessarily like the manager but i will always support him as long as he is here. I just think that, for the season to be saved and us not get relegated, we would be safer parting company with him. I hope he gets the players on side and turns it around, I really do. Having said that, he has no history of fighting battles at the wrong end of the table so even getting the players on side doesn't guarantee he will have the nous to get the results needed.

Them's balanced sentiments, villarocker, but it is of course what players do on the pitch that's really the main issue. For me, I thought the spirit showed through against Chelsea, and it made me wonder if Sunderland was a case of the players being too afraid to do anything wrong in front of their own supporters.

Boy, we're going to be biting our nails for a little while yet!!

[fran_villa]

GH didnt have to come in and ruffle everyones feathers, i knoe he;s the manager but there is better ways of getting people on your side.

Well, that's your ideal and maybe that should be the preferred way, but if you go on any management course they'll say that it's not necessarily the right tactic to do your job.

We have no choice but to give GH time to see what he can do in the job.

us fans dont have a choice, and i think a loss to the sha will be enough to see him gone, but Randy has the choice to make a change and if he see's his investment heading further down the tube he'll have to act, i hope it doesnt have to get to that because i'd rather see us pull out of this bad situation tbh as much as i hate GH even.

[sellyoakvilla]

When have I ever used pre season as an excuse? It's obvious he's changed the tactics and the way the team play but why do you think MON left. This was always going to happen, we were on the slide from the Carling Cup final last season and it was not going to change unless massive investment was made.

Using our form after the cup final as evidence that we were going to be in the relegation zone, 1 point off the bottom and 1 goal off the worst goal difference is one of the stupidest things I've read.

Could you please stop insinuating. I have never said we were going to be in the relegation zone based on that form, infact I think it's a joke we are down there if that's what you want to hear. By "This was always going to happen" I am saying a poor run of form or a slide down the table was going to happen.It is obvious we were on the slide, Milner leaving did not help one bit. But nowhere have I said we were going to be in the relegation zone because of our form last season. Nowhere. It is a factor. That is all. If MON was still manager we would not be much better off than we are now, IMO.

[steaknchips]

And tbh, if he was in any way a decent manager whyaren't players coing out and backing him up?.

Maybe its a case of I dont wanna come accross as chosing sides...You have to remember Dunne,Warnock and Collins are probrably all pals...Houllier upsets 1 and the others kinda follow..

Im pretty sure the likes of Delph(big McAllister fan),Heskey and all the youngsters are happy with the current management..

Also the likes of Reo Coker will no doubt have thoughts away from Villa Park as he didnt get the contract he wanted..

So Houllier has problems to sort out...Problems any manager coming in would no doubt have!

GH didnt have to come in and ruffle everyones feathers, i knoe he;s the manager but there is better ways of getting people on your side.

It wasnt hard to ruffle feathers,when dealing with a spoilt squad that have played together all season,all without having to worry about their 1st team place..Drop in form,they get replaced in the 1st team "and with a youngster" .It aint hard to see where the problems are coming from,when the dropped seniors are saying "ive played all season in the 1st team".."I dont like being dropped in favour of a youngster"!

But i thought the only reason why the young lads where in the team was because of players been injured, this is a spoilt squad that got us 6th inthe league and a up final, something geriatric Gerard could only dream of.

Barely 6th,with the help of Liverpool screwing up on the last day of the season..Besides that season,we had player of the years Milner...Now how hard did he work last season? How influential was he in our team? It may just be one player but its a very important loss to the side..

Add the Milner departure to the whole morale of 6 players forced onto the trans list by MON,then MON walking out,then K'Mac coming in and the big morale sucking 6-0 defeat at Newcastle,then K'Mac(a player fav)dismissed for Houllier,add that to half the key players in the team are a year older...It mounts up to a very,very difficult time for the fall guy Houllier.....I mean was this guy mad taking on this job,or what? Dont call me a genius or anything but I could see most of this coming..

P.S You can add all the injuries onto that as well..

But the worst thing of all,was the favourtism in a split dressing room caused by MON..It was always going to be a disaster for whoever comes in after him to deal with...Half the players are celebrating that they now have a chance of making the 1st team,the other half are feeling small if they get dropped...

[Richard]

My opinion hasn't softened. Should have been sacked by now.

O'Leary was right, we are fickle.

No he wasn't and no we aren't.

Certainly not me, I don't think I've at any point liked Houllier and only hoped he might prove me wrong, and that was only because that would be good for us.

As it is, since Liverpool at least I've been quite staunch in 'sack him' opinion. So not really fickle at all.

And me. I was very skeptical of the decision to appoint him and almost immediately said so (got dogs abuse for it too) I still want him to succeed and would love to be proven wrong, but lets face it it isn't going to happen. The third worst manager in my lifetime this in company with Mcneil and Odreary

[steve-67]

My opinion hasn't softened. Should have been sacked by now.

O'Leary was right, we are fickle.

No he wasn't and no we aren't.

Certainly not me, I don't think I've at any point liked Houllier and only hoped he might prove me wrong, and that was only because that would be good for us.

As it is, since Liverpool at least I've been quite staunch in 'sack him' opinion. So not really fickle at all.

And me. I was very skeptical of the decision to appoint him and almost immediately said so (got dogs abuse for it too) I still want him to succeed and would love to be proven wrong, but lets face it it isn't going to happen. The third worst manager in my lifetime this in company with Mcneil and Odreary

I think he'll get to the end of the month at least but lose against Blues and we'll go crackers. I think that the signings on loan only, no fee players could be very telling.

[fran_villa]

GH is no fall guy, your pulling things out of the air that may not have had a massive effect on the team, thats like me saying if another manager was here we wouldn't be in this mess.anyway, the book stops with GH now, its nothing got to do with K Mac or MON anymore. imo GH has a squad that should be atleast in the top half of the table. but know he's that great he has us in 18th.

[Villarocker]

And tbh, if he was in any way a decent manager why aren't players coming out and backing him up?.

Perhaps they think too much of themselves and/or they had too much of an easy time under MON?

I agree with a lot of the things you've said John and can see your points to argue a case for Houllier. However, do you not think it would have been better for him to see what was going on and then deal with it at a more timely point in the season, namely now and in the summer?

My concern is that he has done too much damage too soon and that he won't be able to get enough players in/out to make the atmosphere that much better for him to get the players on side enough to fight their way out of this.

I guess our season rests in the hands of the players and their relationships with the manager. If the stories are true and the damage can't be repaired, I really feel that we could go down. They don't have clauses in their contracts so why would they be too concerned? They go down and they still get their normal salaries whilst playing against the likes of Sheff Utd, Doncaster and Coventry. If we sell them it will have to be on the cheap and other clubs will pay them what they want because of the nature of the transfer fee. The pressure is all on the management and that's what worries me.

I don't neccessarily like the manager but i will always support him as long as he is here. I just think that, for the season to be saved and us not get relegated, we would be safer parting company with him. I hope he gets the players on side and turns it around, I really do. Having said that, he has no history of fighting battles at the wrong end of the table so even getting the players on side doesn't guarantee he will have the nous to get the results needed.

Them's balanced sentiments, villarocker, but it is of course what players do on the pitch that's really the main issue. For me, I thought the spirit showed through against Chelsea, and it made me wonder if Sunderland was a case of the players being too afraid to do anything wrong in front of their own supporters.

Boy, we're going to be biting our nails for a little while yet!!

Aha nail on the head John!

I was sat next to my Dad at the Sunderland game and after about 25 minutes I forecasted how the game would sort of go. I said that we would continue to play well without scoring and go in at 0-0. I said that we would come out and Sunderland would weather the storm until they nick a goal from a set piece and then spend the rest of the game withstanding our poor attempts at breaking them down.

Obviously it went a little differently to that as they were the better team when they came out after the break. Also, they looked the more likely to score when they took the lead. I reckon that is down to Heskey though. Had he stayed on the pitch I still believe we would have lost as we looked scared. The writing was on the wall when Cuellar got into countless positions where he had the chance to cross but bottled it and passed it back to Downing. Then Petrov ran into the box and decided to turn back instead of taking on the shot. You could just sense the fear in them and I really don't know how we are going to get over that as the fans are after blood at the moment and that is going to pass down to the players.

[fran_villa]

My opinion hasn't softened. Should have been sacked by now.

O'Leary was right, we are fickle.

No he wasn't and no we aren't.

Certainly not me, I don't think I've at any point liked Houllier and only hoped he might prove me wrong, and that was only because that would be good for us.

As it is, since Liverpool at least I've been quite staunch in 'sack him' opinion. So not really fickle at all.

And me. I was very skeptical of the decision to appoint him and almost immediately said so (got dogs abuse for it too) I still want him to succeed and would love to be proven wrong,

Me and you both.

[Moorski]

I would have him in second place;

1;Billy Bingo McNeill

2;Gerard "mutter mutter" Houllier

3;Dr.Jo Nogloss

4;Graham (Nice Guy) Turner

5;David O'Dreary - Nobody does like you your right

[AstonMartin82]

I'm Houllier's biggest critic and I hate the fact that he still in charge of our club. However, it would seem he is here for this season at least and as such we have to do as much as we can to get out of this mess. That means cheering our players, and our manager from this moment forth. It's going to be a rocky ride till the end of the season, but I think now is the time to start supporting our team harder than we've ever supported them before - perhaps even chant a Houllier song instead of booing him to create a feel good factor around our club once more?

[Juju]

The thing is, if the pro Houlier posters (or trolls, as I feel they could generally be called) could stop saying "he needs more time" or "He needs his own squad", or making excuses for our conpetitive sixth placed finishes, and simply point to one thing he has got right so far, then I would at least see a glimmer of hope.

All I see is a man who has been out of English football too long, too inflexible with his old ideas, unwilling to acknowledge they might be wrong, and too arrogant to do anything about them. His leadership skills are nil, his approach out of date, and even if his ideas contained any merit, his woeful inability to articulate to the players what he wants, and the lack of consideration that doing things entirely his way with these players may not be what they are good at, concerns me deeply. He simply cannot get the players playing to their strengths, in the way he wants.

Now, all I know is if my team leader gets another job, and the replacement comes in, upsets everyone, and the work stats/results fall off the side of the graph, the management don't expect "everyone to be sacked" so the team leader can show what he's really about. They say "don't let the door hit you on the arse - your fired".

Whats so hard to understand trolls? At the moment, you appear like Captain Smith of the Titanic, believing theres no need to slow down in the ice field as you are in an unsinkable ship.

[sellyoakvilla]

The thing now is, I know he hasn't done himself any favours, neither have the team, but the fans aren't really showing any support to the team (note: team, not manager)

When you're playing at home and you are under the cosh and it's difficult to break down a team who have obviously played for a draw or a counter attack goal then you need all the support the fans can give. If a player makes a mistake it's one mass groan and abuse hurled towards the player from everywhere in the ground and boos at half time if we're not winning. If I was a player going into the dressing room at half time I'd be bloody scared to make a mistake in the second half incase of even worse fan reaction. The atmosphere when Sunderland scored on Wednesday night was evil, singing "sacked in the morning" is not going to help anyone and definitely won't get the manager sacked, it just makes us look like idiots as the media had a field day on it. If the club is going to turn this around the fans are needed just as much as the manager and players as nervous players make for more pressure and more mistakes. I'm confident we will turn this round but the constant moaning, booing and abuse to the players/manager helps no one.

[Richard]

In order of worst

1= Odreary, Mcneil and houllier (just cant seperate them)

4. Turner

5. GTMK2

[ThornburyVilla]

Summary of my view

1. MON got team of overpaid prima donna players playing well by massaging their ego's, whilst ignoring the fantastic kids and sticking to his favourites

2. MON left at the time that damaged us the most, because he was told he couldnt sign a player no one wanted - McGeady!

3. Houllier came in with no option to buy any of his own style players

4. Houllier has suffered a 'crazy set of injuries than no team could cope with

5. Houllier wants to change us from hoof, counter attaching MON team into passing attacking 'top four' side, without the overpaid ego's

6. The Club will buy in January IF the right players come along, but will loan players that haven't got the ego's to supplement the great non ego players that are left and the fantastic youth players (that have been developed post MON), in readiness for a COMPLETE overhaul in the summer where we will see a completely new type of player signed to really turn us into a successful club.

In my eyes Houllier has made two major mistakes -

1. Alienating fans over the Liverpool comments

2. Trying to change things too quickly - upsetting the ego's straight from the start so that the injuries decimated a team that was allready divided, as MON's ego had the hump at his change in style.

These errors have turned a large percentage of the fan base against him, and yes the position in the league is precarious. Rest assured no one wants Villa to go down, especially me, but screaming blue murder at the players and manager is not going to achieve anything positive. Only positive attitudes and support is going to get us back where we belong.

[bickster]

It wasnt hard to ruffle feathers,when dealing with a spoilt squad that have played together all season,all without having to worry about their 1st team place..Drop in form,they get replaced in the 1st team "and with a youngster" .It aint hard to see where the problems are coming from,when the dropped seniors are saying "ive played all season in the 1st team".."I dont like being dropped in favour of a youngster"!

See that bit in bold, when did that happen? When did a senior player get dropped for a youngster. Warnock's dropping for Clark notwithstanding (as it was only this week - the rot started way way way before that) and Clarks inclusion ahead of Cuellar (madness) its not really happened. Senior players have always gone straight back in the team

[AstonMartin82]

The thing is, if the pro Houlier posters (or trolls, as I feel they could generally be called) could stop saying "he needs more time" or "He needs his own squad", or making excuses for our conpetitive sixth placed finishes, and simply point to one thing he has got right so far, then I would at least see a glimmer of hope.

All I see is a man who has been out of English football too long, too inflexible with his old ideas, unwilling to acknowledge they might be wrong, and too arrogant to do anything about them. His leadership skills are nil, his approach out of date, and even if his ideas contained any merit, his woeful inability to articulate to the players what he wants, and the lack of consideration that doing things entirely his way with these players may not be what they are good at, concerns me deeply. He simply cannot get the players playing to their strengths, in the way he wants.

Now, all I know is if my team leader gets another job, and the replacement comes in, upsets everyone, and the work stats/results fall off the side of the graph, the management don't expect "everyone to be sacked" so the team leader can show what he's really about. They say "don't let the door hit you on the arse - your fired".

Whats so hard to understand trolls? At the moment, you appear like Captain Smith of the Titanic, believing theres no need to slow down in the ice field as you are in an unsinkable ship.

I agree with everything you write, other than the troll nonsense, but what use is there abusing him now? The guy is here till the end of the season... get used to it and start supporting the team... that is my suggestion.

[Moorski]

I think that he is likely to be here until the summer at least unless we had 3 really bad results in our next 3 games,surely not even Randy would accept that? would he!