Torture...is it necessary?

[wiggyrichard]

I will give my 2 pence worth which ties in with what your trying to say Gringo.

Middle east produce all the oil and sell in $'s so USA make money no matter what as every barrel of oil is sold in $'s. Someone said 'you got a problem? OK we will sell free hold to whoever we want and in what ever currency we want to!'. USA stand to loose billion of $'s. Someone says 'you've got weapons of mass distruction!'

The rest is histroy.

[peterms]

If it saves me being blown to smithereens on the tube then i am all for it.

It's probably increased the chances of this happening.

[peterms]

The obvious problems with torture (victims making up any old bollocks to make the pain stop) will never go away, however they may be the only way to crack suspects who are otherwise so committed to their cause (especially if religious) that they'd never give up information any other way. In general I think it's just about justifiable, given that the information procured could save hundreds of lives.

Why do there seem to be an increasing number of suspects who seem to be so committed to their cause that they will engage in terrorist activities? It couldn't be anything to do with the use of torture, could it?

I think we are in a situation where the actions of people like Dubya have contributed greatly to the radicalisation of large numbers of people, and Blair's support has meant that we have become targets for their actions where we were much less likely to be targets before.

Claiming that the use of torture has prevented one or more possible atrocities conveniently sidesteps the issue of whether the atrocity was in the first place planned partly because of the use of torture. Dubya casts himself as our protector, when in fact he is the exact opposite.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

I usually find there's a strong correlation between those who advocate torture, and those who also advocate the death penalty.

Actually, also add in right wing political views.

I think we're seeing that again on this thread.

No to the death penalty, easy way out for people like Huntley.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

Let's not forget the people who say they have been tortured also kill people in the name of religion so anything they say can and should be classed as bolox.

I don't really beleive any of them as it's the only thing they can say to get sympathy, if they say the food is rubbish in prison and it's a bit cold with no Sky TV everyone says "Good", if they say they have been torured to save the lives of 1000's most people go "O no that's really bad, how awful for you. Let's get it on the news"

[wiggyrichard]

Why do there seem to be an increasing number of suspects who seem to be so committed to their cause that they will engage in terrorist activities? It couldn't be anything to do with the use of torture, could it?

I think we are in a situation where the actions of people like Dubya have contributed greatly to the radicalisation of large numbers of people, and Blair's support has meant that we have become targets for their actions where we were much less likely to be targets before.

Claiming that the use of torture has prevented one or more possible atrocities conveniently sidesteps the issue of whether the atrocity was in the first place planned partly because of the use of torture. Dubya casts himself as our protector, when in fact he is the exact opposite.

Thats bollox mate.

So your saying the more we torture people to extract information, the more terrorists there will be produced?

Bin Laden has never been tortured by the USA...yet he still arranged for 3000 innocent people to be killed.

[tonyh29]

And linking 9/11 to the invasion of Iraq

it's not my linking everybody and his dog knows that is exactly the pretense that America used for invading Iraq , so why you feel the need to attempt to score points about it i'm a tad confused ,

I guess Obama may be somewhat restricted by the financial mess he was left with - or are we blaming this one on a global crisis?

well interestingly enough i did state the case many a time that it was actually Clinton that set the ball rolling on this mess , but it seemed easier for everyone to pin it on Bush whilst Clinton gets to strut around the globe .. but again i'm not really sure where you are trying to go with this

But maybe we could just look at the lists that are judging Bush - currently ranked 39th out of 44 (see wiki)

ahh Wiki the fount of all knowledge , the fact that Saint Bill can rank at 13th tells you all you need to know about how flawed that survey is

Why just genocide on their own people

because by default when they commit genocide on another nations people the UN , US etc kinda already step in ..however when they commit it on their own people those bodies tend to sit back and say it's an internal matter

[Bazdavies79]

Bin liner probably finds it easier to recruit these days.

[mjmooney]

Bin liner probably finds it easier to recruit these days.

See my mini-flowchart near the top of page two.

[wiggyrichard]

Bin liner probably finds it easier to recruit these days.

See my mini-flowchart near the top of page two.

Terrorists prey on the innocent, nothing gives you the right to do that Mike.

[mjmooney]

Bin liner probably finds it easier to recruit these days.

See my mini-flowchart near the top of page two.

Terrorists prey on the innocent, nothing gives you the right to do that Mike.

I'm not taking sides, I'm just pointing out the reciprocal nature of peoples' "justifications".

[Clarry]

Old link, but interesting. The writer has a familiar name too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/16/AR2007051602395.html

[Jon]

(1) They are perpetrating terrorist acts, which gives us the right to practice torture

(2) They are practicing torture, which gives us the right to perpetrate terrorist acts

(3) Go to (1)

yep. It's kind of self perpetuating, isn't it?

Chicken and egg type situation anyway, but by and large:

1. terrorist finds and believes in just cause for terrorism, and commits terrorist act (or plans to)

2. State tortures "terrorist" (or what they believe to be a terrorist) to extract "vital" information from them.

3. Terrorists find additional/magnified justification for the terrorism (see 1)

I just can't see how the use of Torture by an advanced democratic state is the way forward ...

[tonyh29]

advanced democratic state

So we are not talking about America any more then ? :winkold:

[Bazdavies79]

The American's use of torture was a huge resounding success......for the Bush/Bin liner propoganda machines.

[kidlewis]

if torture isn't an option what other methods can be used on someone to extract information quickly and effectively?

[wiggyrichard]

if torture isn't an option what other methods can be used on someone to extract information quickly and effectively?

Invite them in for a cup of tea and a hand job.

[Jondaken]

if torture isn't an option what other methods can be used on someone to extract information quickly and effectively?

Ask them nicely?

[Shillzz]

AND a hand job?

Generous.

[Bazdavies79]

Problem is, it's neither quick nor effective. Torture I mean, not the handjob.