snowychap Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 I think the speed at which this is being shoved through parliament is also pretty disgraceful; it's a continuation of the lack of respect shown by the executive for parliament in the last couple of decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 The beeb are reporting that two Lib Dem junior ministers/ministerial aides are to resign (in order to vote against the bill, I'd guess). Edit: They're PPSs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Fair play to Clegg putting the countries interest over his party and his own The country needs more politicians like him You wind up merchant :-) Actually heard a few callers on 5 live this morning say the same thing , so I'm not as alone in this as i thought I do think this is part of Nicks gamble , by the time of the next election assuming all goes well , do you think the voters will care that a graduate will be paying £7 a month extra in tax ( about the cost of 1 Che Guevara T-shirt) for his job paying him £22k ? I think it long since stopped being about the exact details of which variation on a repayment scheme is marginally better or worse. Voters in general will neither know nor care about the monthly repayments, how they vary with income over what period, and which decile of the population will be relatively advantaged by the trivial variations currently under discussion. What they will remember is the general widespread perception that a strongly expressed and unequivocal commitment has been broken. No amount of finessing an argument or wheeling out policy people to present an argument about the scheme will get away from that. The Libs know that, and the wiser among them realise it's going to mean long-term damage which will be very hard to repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 What they will remember is the general widespread perception that a strongly expressed and unequivocal commitment has been broken. you may well be correct , I'm just thinking back to referendum promises etc , by and large the public didn't bat an eyelid when it didn't happen , I don't think it cost Labour the election for example .. or maybe it did ? true the Libs have a large base amongst students but in 4 years time at the next election they will have all graduated , started reaping the rewards and will be voting Tory anyway :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONO Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 I think the speed at which this is being shoved through parliament is also pretty disgraceful; it's a continuation of the lack of respect shown by the executive for parliament in the last couple of decades. As Vince Cable said "It is to ensure that universities update their brochures for next year". "Will these brochures also be updated with support for poorer students?" "I don't know" Says it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJA1703 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 started reaping the rewards and will be voting Tory anyway :-) Reaping the rewards? Do go on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted December 9, 2010 Moderator Share Posted December 9, 2010 I know others think differently but I really don't see the Libs recovering from today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted December 9, 2010 Moderator Share Posted December 9, 2010 21 Lib MP's voted against the coalition government on this, that is a pretty divided party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 9, 2010 Moderator Share Posted December 9, 2010 ...the general widespread perception that a strongly expressed and unequivocal commitment has been broken. No amount of finessing an argument or wheeling out policy people to present an argument about the scheme will get away from that. The Libs know that, and the wiser among them realise it's going to mean long-term damage which will be very hard to repair. That's probably all true. The Libs would be damaged by this whatever they did. But as someone who doesn't support any of them really, I don't care. For me while it's kind of interesting to look at the nuances and arguments about motives and so on, I'm more interested on each issue as to which is the least bad/best way to proceed. The end result for me is what matters, in terms of what's implemented. I don't like the tribal nature of it. I confess to preferring the idea of coalitions to single party rule. I've voted for Labour and for the Lib Dems in various general elections, but that's largely based on a dislike of the tories (tactical voting) and picking whichever of Labour/lib Dem is "least bad" in my mind. New Labour lost me as a supporter after their first term, after Iraq and after their tory lite pandering to Murdoch and big business, and their timidity. While I don't blame labour for the global recession, they were part of the problem not part of the solution, and much as I felt their proposals were less bad than the tory ones on recovery, there were too many other negatives to vote for them, and there still are. I sort of cling to the hope that the Lib Dem ideas will temper the more rabid tory madness, and that the alternative - another election which would get the Tories in alone would be worse (or even Labour in alone - they're not fit, yet, to govern again). Pragmatism says the best thing is for this current lot to give it a decent go. And that's despite me absolutely being appalled what they've done to the area I work in and to the defence of the country. Every day in the Hangar I work in, I see a Nimrod that's going to be sawn up (as I posted earlier in the thread) and I could, I dunno, despair or kick the crap out of cameron and Fox and Obsorne. "Just" the 1400 jobs going today, at our work. http://goo.gl/3kfKw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 it pisses me off that university is seen as some holy grail to becoming educated. it really isn't. if it is then secondary education is a complete failure. the fact that you can get to any university with terrible grades is beyond me. which you can certainly do. The cost of university has increased dramatically. therefore it HAS to be something that received cuts, in some form. I do have an issue with the level they are cutting this budget as well as introducing larger fees. the only decent option would be to increase the number of points on courses, therefore reducing the number of university places significantly based on individuals achievements. therefore fees could stay the same but uni places are reduced. you then merge some universities together, because there's too many of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 I know others think differently but I really don't see the Libs recovering from today. Agree Ash. 21 Lib MP's voted against the coalition government on this, that is a pretty divided party. Agree Ash. Fair play to the 21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted December 9, 2010 Moderator Share Posted December 9, 2010 Fair play to the 21 Indeed, if the 21 figure is correct then I admire them for sticking to their beliefs rather than following the adopted party line in order to hang to the coat tails of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc89 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 it pisses me off that university is seen as some holy grail to becoming educated. it really isn't. if it is then secondary education is a complete failure. the fact that you can get to any university with terrible grades is beyond me. which you can certainly do. The cost of university has increased dramatically. therefore it HAS to be something that received cuts, in some form. I do have an issue with the level they are cutting this budget as well as introducing larger fees. the only decent option would be to increase the number of points on courses, therefore reducing the number of university places significantly based on individuals achievements. therefore fees could stay the same but uni places are reduced. you then merge some universities together, because there's too many of them.What other alternatives do young people have in this Country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Hughes abstained though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Fair play to the 21 I'd be more concerned that all labour MP's voted "No" .. especially as a few Labour MP's came out and said they supported the bill the other week ...opposition for oppositions sake ?? Anyhow common sense has prevailed , the bill has passed and we can move on to other areas of reform and the students can back to doing whatever next weeks student fad is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJA1703 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 it pisses me off that university is seen as some holy grail to becoming educated. it really isn't. if it is then secondary education is a complete failure. the fact that you can get to any university with terrible grades is beyond me. which you can certainly do. The cost of university has increased dramatically. therefore it HAS to be something that received cuts, in some form. I do have an issue with the level they are cutting this budget as well as introducing larger fees. the only decent option would be to increase the number of points on courses, therefore reducing the number of university places significantly based on individuals achievements. therefore fees could stay the same but uni places are reduced. you then merge some universities together, because there's too many of them.What other alternatives do young people have in this Country? England is flooded with jobs at the moment, especially with the new immigration plans, fdi is flooding in, creating thousands of extra vacancies for the school leavers to fill. ... or your CV isn't looked at unless you have a degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc89 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Fair play to the 21 Anyhow common sense has prevailed , the bill has passed and we can move on to other areas of reform and the students can back to doing whatever next weeks student fad is What a disgusting attitude Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 it pisses me off that university is seen as some holy grail to becoming educated. it really isn't. if it is then secondary education is a complete failure. the fact that you can get to any university with terrible grades is beyond me. which you can certainly do. The cost of university has increased dramatically. therefore it HAS to be something that received cuts, in some form. I do have an issue with the level they are cutting this budget as well as introducing larger fees. the only decent option would be to increase the number of points on courses, therefore reducing the number of university places significantly based on individuals achievements. therefore fees could stay the same but uni places are reduced. you then merge some universities together, because there's too many of them.What other alternatives do young people have in this Country? apprenticeships, setup your own business, train in many other areas that don't require university. What percentage of university graduates end up going into a job which requires no such further education? i bet the percentage is a lot higher than people think. yes university is not just about getting a great job, but I don't agree I should be funding someone's university course merely to merely educate them. University is certainly not a solution to obtaining a decent wage/living. far from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 ...I don't like the tribal nature of it. I confess to preferring the idea of coalitions to single party rule. I've voted for Labour and for the Lib Dems in various general elections, but that's largely based on a dislike of the tories (tactical voting) and picking whichever of Labour/lib Dem is "least bad" in my mind. New Labour lost me as a supporter after their first term, after Iraq and after their tory lite pandering to Murdoch and big business, and their timidity. While I don't blame labour for the global recession, they were part of the problem not part of the solution, and much as I felt their proposals were less bad than the tory ones on recovery, there were too many other negatives to vote for them, and there still are. I sort of cling to the hope that the Lib Dem ideas will temper the more rabid tory madness, and that the alternative - another election which would get the Tories in alone would be worse (or even Labour in alone - they're not fit, yet, to govern again). Pragmatism says the best thing is for this current lot to give it a decent go. And that's despite me absolutely being appalled what they've done to the area I work in and to the defence of the country. Every day in the Hangar I work in, I see a Nimrod that's going to be sawn up (as I posted earlier in the thread) and I could, I dunno, despair or kick the crap out of cameron and Fox and Obsorne. "Just" the 1400 jobs going today, at our work. http://goo.gl/3kfKw A lot of people have drifted away from traditional parties, feeling disillusioned by the relatively small differences between them, and there's been a growth in interest in single issue politics. Alongside that, what's interesting about the wikileaks stuff is not so much the particular revelations, but the combination of engagement with the issues and entirely bypassing traditional political structures. On the Nimrod thing, if the question is "which party would follow a more rational approach to this and other public policies" and the answer is that there would be fairly minor differences between the policies each would follow (as with the education cuts), then maybe that's not the right question. A growing number of people seem to think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Fair play to the 21 Anyhow common sense has prevailed , the bill has passed and we can move on to other areas of reform and the students can back to doing whatever next weeks student fad is What a disgusting attitude Tony. why .. just cause I happen to think that students should pay their own way .. Yes I know people are going to trott out the line about the poor students and so on but no one has to sit down tomorrow and write a cheque for £9k to go to university , so in that regard it isn't penalising anyone yes students do benefit the country , but the students themselves also benefit and £7 a month in extra tax or whatever it is , really is a small price to pay in the long run ... unless you think every student goes to uni to leave and go and do voluntary work in the Sudan ? and if they do then they wont have to pay the bloody loan thingy back anyway .. So no it isn't a disgusting attitude , what is disgusting is the wanton vandalism and destruction that "some" of the protesters have caused imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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