Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #6 - Leaders Debate 3

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Indeed, it hurts the lower classes. But would you take say short term pain, in order to save on tax rises a few years down the line?

To abolish VAT you would need to plug a massive hole though, I don't think the UK has a strong enough consumer base to scrap it. For example the USA can afford not to have it because they produce and sell products en masse, it just isn't the case here.

[kidlewis]

everyone knows the reason why they won't tell us the extent of tax raises and cuts, because if they all told the truth no one would vote for them. As much as the punters in the audience think they want to know the truth, if you tell them it, they'd tell you to fack off.

[Gringo]

not telling us the full extent of their ideas and how they will recoup the deficit until we've voted them into Downing street.

But all the parties are the same in that respect.

They all refuse to deny that they will raise VAT to 20%, but they all will.

Don't get me wrong, all of them will break promises and lie to the public, it's in the political nature to do so and some times it's necessary to act with taxation. But the Tories are threatening the public services, we can't afford the NHS to take a dip in quality when so many people are reliant on this service, not all of us can afford private health care. It's vitally important we preserve the welfare system and try to improve the system steadily over the years.

Well if you look at the published policies, they all promise to preserve the NHS, though there are differences in certain aspects of how they'll tinker with the rest of the welfare state.

The problem is, people don't believe the party manifestos and instead rely on the parties past track record.

That's because when parties break the promises in their manifesto, we lose faith in their words, and trust to their past actions. The incumbent govt is more guilty of breaking manifesto promises than previous tory ones, which is a darn shame.

[Awol]

Tory leader David Cameron acknowledged that the Conservatives would have to go further in cutting public spending than they had so far admitted in order to tackle Britain's record £163 billion deficit. But he insisted that he would ensure that the most vulnerable in society were protected.

- What a load of tosh.

Which bit?

The spending cuts in the public sector is really a major worry of mine;

They should be a worry because they are going to be decimated. Every party will be forced to do the same thing.

and also this potential Tory Government haven't been totally upfront with their plans for the future of our Country,

None of the Parties have, if they did they know that they'd never get voted in. Do you understand the mess Labour have got us into?

I mean they plan to hold a emergency budget meeting 25 days into their internship, not telling us the full extent of their ideas and how they will recoup the deficit until we've voted them into Downing street.

Because they can't. Labour have deliberately put off the comprehensive spending review in order to conceal the magnitude of their failure. Without these numbers the other parties have no chance of actually presenting accurate fingers to the electorate. If they put a finger in the air and winged it you'd be screaming that they lied so thanks to Gordon they have no choice but to do what you have indicated in terms of an emergency budget. The country is facing an emergency, sadly some simply don't have the wit to see that.

I have a vision of them ruining the NHS and other public run sectors, which ordinary people depend on and I can also see jobs being cut in these sectors immediately.

Well visions aside they have pledged to protect NHS spending in real terms - Labour haven't.

I really hope they don't get in.

Better them than the ruinous Labour party.

[Gringo]

Indeed, it hurts the lower classes. But would you take say short term pain, in order to save on tax rises a few years down the line?

To abolish VAT you would need to plug a massive hole though, I don't think the UK has a strong enough consumer base to scrap it. For example the USA can afford not to have it because they produce and sell products en masse, it just isn't the case here.

VAT

Bloke buys wheat and pays vat on it, and on the fuel to deliver it and the energy to mill it. He sells it to the bread company and charges vat, and fills in his vat return, deducting his outgoing vat from his income vat.

Bread company buys the flour and other stuff, and pay vat on it and vat on the energy to make the bread, and sells it to the supermarket charging vat,and fills in his vat return, deducting his outigoing vat from his income vat.

The supermarket buys the bread, pays vat, and pays vat on the energy to run the shop and the delivery vans to run it to the stores, and fills in their vat return, deducting his outigoing vat from his income vat.

And 1,000's of tax inspectors process the vat returns. Having to deal with three firms instead of one.

All a complete waste of time.

A sales tax at the point of final delivery means the supermarket have to fill in a return.

Stupid, stupid tax.

Yes there would be a tax shortfall, and that would fall upon income tax, but that would less wasteful, more fair, and more beneficial to the industries that run the economy and generate the GDP that will keep the economy from falling backwards, and maybe even help pay off some of the debt.

{the above example is complete tosh as VAT isn't paid on cold food, but imagine other industries with similar chains of provision and you can see the waste}

[Malachite]

Tory leader David Cameron acknowledged that the Conservatives would have to go further in cutting public spending than they had so far admitted in order to tackle Britain's record £163 billion deficit. But he insisted that he would ensure that the most vulnerable in society were protected.

- What a load of tosh.

Which bit?

The spending cuts in the public sector is really a major worry of mine; and also this potential Tory Government haven't been totally upfront with their plans for the future of our Country, I mean they plan to hold a emergency budget meeting 25 days into their internship, not telling us the full extent of their ideas and how they will recoup the deficit until we've voted them into Downing street.

I have a vision of them ruining the NHS and other public run sectors, which ordinary people depend on and I can also see jobs being cut in these sectors immediately. I really hope they don't get in.

I think these spending cuts to come could be a real horror story for this country, I think there is far more not being said than being said as to whats to come, It depends on what you want really, if Labour get in they will dilute any impact of the cuts on the public by borrowing more at a lesser rate than before, if the Tories get in and they are like any of there predecessors there will be no lessening of the impact on the public, they will hit it hard and without mercy but probably bring the country back into the black faster, with a bit of luck, very painful though, unless you are stinking rich in which case you won't know the difference.

[snowychap]

Indeed, it hurts the lower classes. But would you take say short term pain, in order to save on tax rises a few years down the line?

Why would it be short term? If VAT is increased to 20% then I see no reason why it would ever be reduced.

Also, if the projected increase to treasury coffers is around £12,000 million p.a., why would that rule out other tax rises (let alone ones further down the line)?

[drat01]

Considering that the Tory part are the only ones ever to have raised VAT its a good bet that will be one of their first hits (Note: Yes I know that VAT went back to 17.5% recently but that was only a temp thing to reduce it).

The trouble is VAT rises hits all and the poorer people in society get hit more.

The Tory party have already had an internal email saying that it will be raised to 19.5 % apparently

[snowychap]

I think these spending cuts to come could be a real horror story for this country, I think there is far more not being said than being said as to whats to come...

This programme on C4 last night was quite interesting on the subject.

I didn't catch all of it (missed about 20 minutes) but it pretty much said exactly what you're saying and suggested some possible ways forward.

It says it should be on 4OD soon.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Why would it be short term? If VAT is increased to 20% then I see no reason why it would ever be reduced.

Also, if the projected increase to treasury coffers is around £12,000 million p.a., why would that rule out other tax rises (let alone ones further down the line)?

It was on that Channel 4 show yesterday with the Snowdog.

They basically said (think it was Michael Portillo) that if you increase VAT to 20% for 3-4 years, it'll generate a shag load of money. In turn, this will prevent the need for major tax rises in the mid-late decade.

They put it as if you can increase VAT now, then lower it when it's share of the deficit has been paid off. And instead of major tax increases, you spread out tax rises as thinly as possible. There will still be tax rises but not at the extent of which would happen if VAT wasn't raised now.

Something like that anyway.

[Awol]

Considering that the Tory part are the only ones ever to have raised VAT its a good bet that will be one of their first hits (Note: Yes I know that VAT went back to 17.5% recently but that was only a temp thing to reduce it).

The trouble is VAT rises hits all and the poorer people in society get hit more.

The Tory party have already had an internal email saying that it will be raised to 19.5 % apparently

Well they've got to fix Labour's mess somehow and passing a law to half the deficit doesn't magic it away, does it?

[avfc89]

I appreciate your reply Gringo, but I do feel David Cameron's party will cut deeper than Labour. Every TV debate Cameron has never said how these cuts will affect us or what his plans are for the future in terms of economic growth; we didn't get a grain of information from Dave and that is quite frankly scary in our current position. He keeps bringing up big businesses and cutting waste, that doesn't excite me. Labour are the only ones with a credible plan for the future from my perspective. It's sad people are swept by buzz words and beguiling speeches with no substance.

[snowychap]

The Tory party have already had an internal email saying that it will be raised to 19.5 % apparently

Sounds about right.

Make a daft tax (I agree with Gringo on that) even more daft by not having it at a round figure.

Some stupid think tank wonk probably came with up that so they can say, "Look, it's not 20%."

[drat01]

They put it as if you can increase VAT now, then lower it when it's share of the deficit has been paid off. And instead of major tax increases, you spread out tax rises as thinly as possible. There will still be tax rises but not at the extent of which would happen if VAT wasn't raised now.

But with the exception of the recent VAT reduction that has never happened. Previous promises about only temp measures to raise it from the Tory chancellors were all lies

[Awol]

Labour are the only ones with a credible plan for the future from my perspective.

Really, what (apparently secret) plan would that be then?

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

True it probably won't come down if it goes up. Greece's VAT is at 23% now I think.

The tories will happily use that as a measurement no doubt, "hey VAT maybe raised to 19.5%, but at least we aren't bloody Greece with their bloody Euro!"

[Malachite]

I think its a fair bet that if the Tories get in they will look at every possible tax that can be raised will be raised ( that's not a party political broadcast) Tories have always been for the short sharp shock treatment, this in order to reduce the borrowing in the shortest possible time, problem is with this kind of thing is the fall out, there is always a price to pay, when Thatcher came to power after the Labour mess and winter of discontent blah blah, Credit squeeze, ( anybody remember Mick Hucknell, Simply Red, "Money's to tight to mention" became an anthem of the time) wage freeze, unemployment rocketed, massive house repossessions, record bankruptcies, incredible inflation and interest rates, but the country over the next few years came around, problem is most of the things mentioned we are already there now so phuk knows how bad it could get.

[Gringo]

They put it as if you can increase VAT now, then lower it when it's share of the deficit has been paid off. And instead of major tax increases, you spread out tax rises as thinly as possible. There will still be tax rises but not at the extent of which would happen if VAT wasn't raised now.

But with the exception of the recent VAT reduction that has never happened. Previous promises about only temp measures to raise it from the Tory chancellors were all lies

And of course Darling was planning on raising VAT to 19%, but was stopped by the bloke next door. you could of course say that's only policy papers, but that's just like saying the tories have never said they are going to increase VAT (or have an internal email, just like Alistair's). The increase is on the cards regardless of whichever colour gains power next week - so it's a very mute argument.

They put it as if you can increase VAT now, then lower it when it's share of the deficit has been paid off.

Once VAT has been raised, it has never been lowered, no party, no govt, no country ever. It's a stupid nasty tax that keeps the powerful **** the people. And they like it that way.

I appreciate your reply Gringo, but I do feel David Cameron's party will cut deeper than Labour. Every TV debate Cameron has never said how these cuts will affect us or what his plans are for the future in terms of economic growth;

And we get squiff all from gordon either, nothing that means shite anyway, because as AWOL pointed out, without the spending review, we ain't got the faintest what any of the random numbers either side produce really mean.

[drat01]

Dispatches on C4 at the moment is also very interesting to see who and how the parties are "groomed". The old thing about who pays for them also

[snowychap]

It was on that Channel 4 show yesterday with the Snowdog.

They basically said (think it was Michael Portillo) that if you increase VAT to 20% for 3-4 years, it'll generate a shag load of money. In turn, this will prevent the need for major tax rises in the mid-late decade.

They put it as if you can increase VAT now, then lower it when it's share of the deficit has been paid off. And instead of major tax increases, you spread out tax rises as thinly as possible. There will still be tax rises but not at the extent of which would happen if VAT wasn't raised now.

Something like that anyway.

It might well save on the need for major tax rises in other areas but it would need this one, major tax increase in a regressive tax in order to save on increasing less regressive and more progressive taxes.