Ratings & Reactions: Crystal Palace v Villa

[Xela]

5 hours ago, El Segundo said:

It's interesting that after first 19 games of the season we are in 4th place.  But for the second 19 games of the season we are 9th, behind Man Utd (8th) , Spurs (7th) Palace (6th) Newcastle (5th) and Chelsea (4th).   After the brilliant calendar year in 2023 over two half seasons , I'd say we've been "limping" for a while.  Some of it will be down to the extra European matches (none of the other teams mentioned had European football in the second half of the season) with tiredness and injuries clearly taking their toll.   But other teams also had injuries, arguably even worse affected  in the cases of Newcastle and Chelsea, and some had longer runs in the EFL Cup and FA Cup.   I think there is evidence that a few of the better coaches know how to counter Emery's system. We've seen Newcastle, Chelsea (Cup), Spurs and Olympiakos beat us at VP with intensive high pressing and late runners past the high line exploiting our weaknesses,  and Palace did it effectively yesterday albeit against a lethargic version of Villa wearing their flip-flops.    We've also developed an alarming habit of conceding from set pieces and crosses.   

I love Emery to bits but I think it's not unreasonable for some to be "unconvinced" nor to say the second half of the season has not been that convincing.   Ok it's the whole season that counts but you also need to consider trends and momentum.  Next season will be tougher because that Chelsea team have started to realise their potential and  if they keep Pochetino or get another elite manager, they're going to be right up there.    Newcastle, if they have more luck with injuries, will challenge and it's hard to imagine Man Yew being as poor as they've been this year again.                 

Since Emery has been here, 62 or 63 games have been played in the league by clubs, and we are 4th in the league since that point. 

You are right, we have limped a little bit recently but thats down to a huge injury list we have, andI bet we've only slipped to 9th in that period over the last 3 games.

Next year will be tough again, but with some new players and injury returns, I'm confident we will be fine

UTV x

[El Segundo]

18 minutes ago, Xela said:

Since Emery has been here, 62 or 63 games have been played in the league by clubs, and we are 4th in the league since that point. 

You are right, we have limped a little bit recently but thats down to a huge injury list we have, and I bet we've only slipped to 9th in that period over the last 3 games.

Next year will be tough again, but with some new players and injury returns, I'm confident we will be fine

UTV x

That is a very good insight - in fact when I look again we only dropped to 9th after the final game. 

Second half of the season excluding the last game (game weeks 20 to 37) we're 5th over 18 games, with a few dips to 7th and 8th and a rise to 4th along the way. 

Which makes a complete bollix of my previous analysis.  So much for facts and stats eh? Thanks to you I can now bask in the glow of CL qualification more contentedly.  

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 hours ago, briny_ear said:

The thing that annoyed me most about this result is that, after a fantastic season of achievement way above anything that has been seen for the past 20 years at least, it gave a free pass to the gloomsters, the “we’ve been punching above  our weight”, “it will all fall to pieces next season, Chelsea, Newcastle, Spurs Man U, even Palace, will outdo us (like they were slated to do this season BTW)”, I love Emery BUT…” type of commentators, to come out in full force and cast a dark shadow over the whole of the summer.

I really hoped the actual reality of achieving fourth place - on absolute and undisputed merit, as the Guardian commented - would have allowed such commentators to have a good restful snooze this summer but no, the stupid sods only had to go and lose 0-5 in a meaningless match when they were no doubt still badly hung over if not pissed. Thus the theory of disintegration and decay has been given a fresh impetus. 

Thanks a bunch guys.

Season was over last Tuesday. You don’t have to listen to ‘gloomsters’ for a few months now. Enjoy the summer mate.

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 hours ago, briny_ear said:

The thing that annoyed me most about this result is that, after a fantastic season of achievement way above anything that has been seen for the past 20 years at least, it gave a free pass to the gloomsters, the “we’ve been punching above  our weight”, “it will all fall to pieces next season, Chelsea, Newcastle, Spurs Man U, even Palace, will outdo us (like they were slated to do this season BTW)”, I love Emery BUT…” type of commentators, to come out in full force and cast a dark shadow over the whole of the summer.

I really hoped the actual reality of achieving fourth place - on absolute and undisputed merit, as the Guardian commented - would have allowed such commentators to have a good restful snooze this summer but no, the stupid sods only had to go and lose 0-5 in a meaningless match when they were no doubt still badly hung over if not pissed. Thus the theory of disintegration and decay has been given a fresh impetus. 

Thanks a bunch guys.

Our season was over last Tuesday. You don’t have to listen to ‘gloomsters’ for a few months now. Enjoy the summer mate.

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 hours ago, briny_ear said:

The thing that annoyed me most about this result is that, after a fantastic season of achievement way above anything that has been seen for the past 20 years at least, it gave a free pass to the gloomsters, the “we’ve been punching above  our weight”, “it will all fall to pieces next season, Chelsea, Newcastle, Spurs Man U, even Palace, will outdo us (like they were slated to do this season BTW)”, I love Emery BUT…” type of commentators, to come out in full force and cast a dark shadow over the whole of the summer.

I really hoped the actual reality of achieving fourth place - on absolute and undisputed merit, as the Guardian commented - would have allowed such commentators to have a good restful snooze this summer but no, the stupid sods only had to go and lose 0-5 in a meaningless match when they were no doubt still badly hung over if not pissed. Thus the theory of disintegration and decay has been given a fresh impetus. 

Thanks a bunch guys.

Our season was over last Tuesday. You don’t have to listen to ‘gloomsters’ for a few months now. Enjoy the summer mate.

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 hours ago, briny_ear said:

The thing that annoyed me most about this result is that, after a fantastic season of achievement way above anything that has been seen for the past 20 years at least, it gave a free pass to the gloomsters, the “we’ve been punching above  our weight”, “it will all fall to pieces next season, Chelsea, Newcastle, Spurs Man U, even Palace, will outdo us (like they were slated to do this season BTW)”, I love Emery BUT…” type of commentators, to come out in full force and cast a dark shadow over the whole of the summer.

I really hoped the actual reality of achieving fourth place - on absolute and undisputed merit, as the Guardian commented - would have allowed such commentators to have a good restful snooze this summer but no, the stupid sods only had to go and lose 0-5 in a meaningless match when they were no doubt still badly hung over if not pissed. Thus the theory of disintegration and decay has been given a fresh impetus. 

Thanks a bunch guys.

Seasons over mate. Enjoy the summer and ignore them for a few months.

[briny_ear]

1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Seasons over mate. Enjoy the summer and ignore them for a few months.

Worth repeating1 

[briny_ear]

8 hours ago, El Segundo said:

It's interesting that after first 19 games of the season we are in 4th place.  But for the second 19 games of the season we are 9th, behind Man Utd (8th) , Spurs (7th) Palace (6th) Newcastle (5th) and Chelsea (4th).   After the brilliant calendar year in 2023 over two half seasons , I'd say we've been "limping" for a while.  Some of it will be down to the extra European matches (none of the other teams mentioned had European football in the second half of the season) with tiredness and injuries clearly taking their toll.   But other teams also had injuries, arguably even worse affected  in the cases of Newcastle and Chelsea, and some had longer runs in the EFL Cup and FA Cup.   I think there is evidence that a few of the better coaches know how to counter Emery's system. We've seen Newcastle, Chelsea (Cup), Spurs and Olympiakos beat us at VP with intensive high pressing and late runners past the high line exploiting our weaknesses,  and Palace did it effectively yesterday albeit against a lethargic version of Villa wearing their flip-flops.    We've also developed an alarming habit of conceding from set pieces and crosses.   

I love Emery to bits but I think it's not unreasonable for some to be "unconvinced" nor to say the second half of the season has not been that convincing.   Ok it's the whole season that counts but you also need to consider trends and momentum.  Next season will be tougher because that Chelsea team have started to realise their potential and  if they keep Pochetino or get another elite manager, they're going to be right up there.    Newcastle, if they have more luck with injuries, will challenge and it's hard to imagine Man Yew being as poor as they've been this year again.                 

This is that type of statistic that looks really significant at first but when you think about it is perhaps a bit misleading.

First, it is notable that we actually ended up in 4th despite being “9th” for the second half of the season, so that shows our 2024 performance was good enough to fend off those who were challenging us for fourth, which was all we needed to do, and what Emery very skilfully steered an increasingly depleted and exhausted squad to do, while also trying for the Conference League final. I am amazed he managed to keep us fourth and I do not really think we should be drawing any negatives from that.

Second, when you look at actual performance in the second half of the season there was a very tight group of six teams from 4-10 (the ones you name above minus Chelsea) separated by two points. If we had needed to get something from Palace there is a good chance with a stronger squad and proper motivation (and maybe an earlier bedtime on Tuesday evening) we probably could have done, which would have placed us at the top end of that group - so 4th in the first half of the season and fifth in the second half doesn’t sound so bad does i?

Third - and this is where you do have a point - the fourth best team in the second half of the season by a long way was Chelsea. Their form once Pochettino got them playing was remarkable and a full season like that would see them challenging strongly for top four, which is not perhaps surprising when you think of the amazing amounts they have invested in their squad. We may find it harder to compete for fourth next season and may have to fight for a Europa League place instead. But that is all for the future. For the moment we have secured Champion’s League football so let’s see how far we can get in that competition while trying to stay competitive in the premier league. Exciting times ahead!

[TRO]

4 hours ago, El Segundo said:

It's not just based on yesterday though is it?  My point is based on half a season's results, 19 games.   Over that not insignificant period, those teams you mentioned have already outdone us.  We were brilliant first half of the season and it was enough to get us over the line despite the much poorer second half.    It's not mutually exclusive to be delighted and excited that we got CL qualification,  and deserved it over the full season, but also be realistic enough to know that trend over the second half of the season has been downward, and we need ways to reverse it.    That's where I'm at.  I don't think that's being a "gloomster" I think it's acknowledging facts.  

I would call it, taking a balanced view of it all.

[TRO]

There are 3 kinds of Lies.......Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.

and then, there's opinions.

[PeterSw]

23 hours ago, sidcow said:

Well that was amazing. I'm not rating the players or Emery or the ref. 

But the fans 100 out of 10.

Agree completely. Easily the best away atmosphere I've ever been a part off. Just a load of fans in a great mood from start to finish.. and for a bit after

[TheStagMan]

On 19/05/2024 at 20:34, Exeter Fan Too said:

Gosh, how Villa could have done with

Martinez,

Cash, Mings, Torres,Moreno,

Kamara, Tielemans,Ramsay,

Buendia, Bailey. Rogers

Not a bad team of unavailable players. Stick Watkins up front of 10 of that 11 and its not that bad a line up

 

 

Pretty much our first 11!!

[rjw63]

For some unknown reason I get this uncanny feeling our season was over last Tuesday.

[briny_ear]

5 hours ago, El Segundo said:

It's not just based on yesterday though is it?  My point is based on half a season's results, 19 games.   Over that not insignificant period, those teams you mentioned have already outdone us.  We were brilliant first half of the season and it was enough to get us over the line despite the much poorer second half.    It's not mutually exclusive to be delighted and excited that we got CL qualification,  and deserved it over the full season, but also be realistic enough to know that trend over the second half of the season has been downward, and we need ways to reverse it.    That's where I'm at.  I don't think that's being a "gloomster" I think it's acknowledging facts.  

I’m not wildly interested in prolonging this but this is not a straightforward issue of “facts”. You are taking some data and slanting them to support a gloomy point of view. It is possible to take the same data and present a more optimistic point of view. If ever there was a time for a Villa fan to be optimistic in the last 30 years, it is now. But I am struck that our success this season has been underpinned by a narrative from some of failure, decline and future peril. 

And the 0-5 was particularly disappointing because it does give a renewed platform for all this doom and gloom so shortly after the excitement and optimism of Tuesday night. I doubt if we had played out a boring 0-0 draw there would be so much negative talk.

Edited May 20 by briny_ear

[sidcow]

On 19/05/2024 at 18:55, briny_ear said:

Are you suggesting we didn’t earn every one of our 68 points on merit?

Could you explain how “overperformance “ is measured and identify the specific matches in which we “overperformed”?

Coincidentally we also must have overperformed in the last 6 months of last season too. We're the overperformance masters 

[TRO]

15 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Our season was over last Tuesday. You don’t have to listen to ‘gloomsters’ for a few months now. Enjoy the summer mate.

...............wearing your rose coloured tints.

Edited May 21 by TRO

[TRO]

5 hours ago, sidcow said:

Coincidentally we also must have overperformed in the last 6 months of last season too. We're the overperformance masters 

I am not sure, I understand the "over performance tag".......we have inconsistencies in our game, mainly due to small squad and horrendous injury list...but I wouldn't say we have over performed, the good things we do, we have done well...the not so good things have led to those inconsistencies.

Personally, I would welcome, next season a plan to avoid heavy defeats.....we will always lose games, that's inevitable, but the heavy defeats are not a good look, for an ambitious side. It plays in to the hands of the doubters, and I get that.

When we are on it.....we are as good as most teams, and in transition a real threat......but when it comes to containing teams and game management, we sometimes falter. That IMO is not having the specialist personnel to do it....just deploying offensive minded players in the role.

I think many posts are crossing boundaries between the season, and individual games.....2 different debates.

The season was phenomenal, no doubt about that.....I can't think of many managers, who would have done that, with the type of personnel he has.

Edited May 21 by TRO

[TRO]

14 hours ago, briny_ear said:

Worth repeating1 

Seasons over mate. Enjoy the summer and ignore them for a few months.

Edited May 21 by TRO

[TRO]

15 hours ago, briny_ear said:

I’m not wildly interested in prolonging this but this is not a straightforward issue of “facts”. You are taking some data and slanting them to support a gloomy point of view. It is possible to take the same data and present a more optimistic point of view. If ever there was a time for a Villa fan to be optimistic in the last 30 years, it is now. But I am struck that our success this season has been underpinned by a narrative from some of failure, decline and future peril. 

And the 0-5 was particularly disappointing because it does give a renewed platform for all this doom and gloom so shortly after the excitement and optimism of Tuesday night. I doubt if we had played out a boring 0-0 draw there would be so much negative talk.

I think you are now getting the point of those fans who was disappointed with the result, not the season.( the season is something else, to be proud of) paradoxically, some don't see a 0-0 draw as boring, if it's in context. I would have been happy with a 0-0, but would have loved a 1-0 with Ollie scoring.

I won't go in to the whys and where fors of why that game was such an emphatic defeat, but it wasn't the first time, (during a great season), where the defending went missing.....so consistency does crop up as a focus for next season. and I don't mean expecting to exceed 20 wins in a season, as that is fantastic.....I mean not capitulating when we are going to lose, of the 10 games we lost, I think 7 were 3 goals conceded or over....That is an area of concern, sure the fact we did not lose back to back games was a credit to the team and its mentality.

I am not trying to be gloomy Brin, on what is undoubtedly one of the best seasons in my illustrious 60 odd year supporting history......just searching for balance, and an opportunity to see villa build a dynasty, not just a one season wonder.

Certain aspects of our game, need to improve, and I am absolutely positive Unai & Monchi will be on it......I know that might sound mean, in light of such a great season, but we don't want this to be a one-off do we? we want to sustain it, and with other big teams getting their acts together, we have to admit to our weaknesses and fix them, at the same time building on our strengths and nurturing them, too.

Both points are worthy of consideration..........Balance is key.

UTV

Edited May 21 by TRO

[Follyfoot]

10 hours ago, TRO said:

I think you are now getting the point of those fans who was disappointed with the result, not the season.( the season is something else, to be proud of) paradoxically, some don't see a 0-0 draw as boring, if it's in context. I would have been happy with a 0-0, but would have loved a 1-0 with Ollie scoring.

I won't go in to the whys and where fors of why that game was such an emphatic defeat, but it wasn't the first time, (during a great season), where the defending went missing.....so consistency does crop up as a focus for next season. and I don't mean expecting to exceed 20 wins in a season, as that is fantastic.....I mean not capitulating when we are going to lose, of the 10 games we lost, I think 7 were 3 goals conceded or over....That is an area of concern, sure the fact we did not lose back to back games was a credit to the team and its mentality.

I am not trying to be gloomy Brin, on what is undoubtedly one of the best seasons in my illustrious 60 odd year supporting history......just searching for balance, and an opportunity to see villa build a dynasty, not just a one season wonder.

Certain aspects of our game, need to improve, and I am absolutely positive Unai & Monchi will be on it......I know that might sound mean, in light of such a great season, but we don't want this to be a one-off do we? we want to sustain it, and with other big teams getting their acts together, we have to admit to our weaknesses and fix them, at the same time building on our strengths and nurturing them, too.

Both points are worthy of consideration..........Balance is key.

UTV

Seasons over mate. Enjoy the summer and ignore them for a few months.