villa4europe Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 hour ago, bobzy said: If we’re calling that cheating then every single slight advantage taken on a football pitch (taking a throw in from a different position to where the ball goes out, going down when there’s contact if you’re able to stay up, moving the ball forward when taking a free kick in your own half, the defensive wall stealing a yard or so by shuffling forward) is cheating. If that’s your view, then cool. Players cheat multiple times in every game. its like no one has ever seen a free kick taken in midfield where a player picks the ball up in his hands and then casually throws it in front of him with a bit of back spin before taking the free kick from that position how many free kicks do we see per game where the foul was near a byline and the free kick is taken about 3m inside this is pearl clutching because its Toney 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted January 22 VT Supporter Share Posted January 22 7 minutes ago, Zatman said: They have always had good scouting and bought really well in summer but Alonso has brought in a system that makes them dangerous in attack and solid in defence plus have some good young players He took over similar time to Unai and in a similar position as they were in a relegation battle until about March last season Sounds like Alonso could be a good one then. Interesting. You can never tell, can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 8 minutes ago, villa4europe said: its like no one has ever seen a free kick taken in midfield where a player picks the ball up in his hands and then casually throws it in front of him with a bit of back spin before taking the free kick from that position how many free kicks do we see per game where the foul was near a byline and the free kick is taken about 3m inside this is pearl clutching because its Toney No it’s not. The vast majority of the situations you reference do not happen around the box and they don’t have the lines drawn / sprayed. If you’re setting up a defensive wall based on where the referee has marked the spot for the ball to be placed, and then both the ball and the mark are moved, that’s not right at all. Yes, players take the piss constantly now, it’s cynical at every step from the placing of the ball on the very edge of the corner quadrant to the constant play acting and rolling around trying to get other players booked and sent off, but this one should not have stood, particularly after he moved the refs mark. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 6 minutes ago, HKP90 said: Sounds like Alonso could be a good one then. Interesting. You can never tell, can you? Probably. Some of his ex managers called it compared to Gerrard/Lampard etc He also might have a Michael Beale level of genius on the bench Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted January 22 VT Supporter Share Posted January 22 To me, the Toney thing depends on how you look at the foam. Is it a formal marker denoting the location of a free kick, or just a handy guide? If it's the former, to me it is more akin to trying to move the corner flag to improve the angle of the ball in. If the latter, it's just like trying to move the ball a few yards at a free kick as is done frequently where no foam is used. Law 13 says nothing about the use of foam that I can see. Technically the ball is not being taken from the site of the offence, which is marked by the foam. As he moves the foam, and the ball, by the letter of the law the goal should not have stood. For me, if Toney had moved the ball but not the mark, i'd have said that it's on the ref for not spotting/enforcing it. As he tried to move the foam, i'd say it's probably not on. It's not a massive deal to the player, perhaps at most a caution for dissent (unsporting behaviour)? The goal should not have stood though, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 53 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: No it’s not. The vast majority of the situations you reference do not happen around the box and they don’t have the lines drawn / sprayed. If you’re setting up a defensive wall based on where the referee has marked the spot for the ball to be placed, and then both the ball and the mark are moved, that’s not right at all. Yes, players take the piss constantly now, it’s cynical at every step from the placing of the ball on the very edge of the corner quadrant to the constant play acting and rolling around trying to get other players booked and sent off, but this one should not have stood, particularly after he moved the refs mark. Thank you. I don’t know why some people are so keen to excuse it. Let’s see what happens if someone does this to score against us. Rules on direct free kicks are clear in so far as you can't move the ball from the point of the foul. How VAR missed Toney moving the ball and foam is beyond me. He moved the ball a good yard to give himself an unfair advantage. He's not taking a direct throw in or direct corner either. They aren't remotely comparable, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said: No it’s not. The vast majority of the situations you reference do not happen around the box and they don’t have the lines drawn / sprayed. If you’re setting up a defensive wall based on where the referee has marked the spot for the ball to be placed, and then both the ball and the mark are moved, that’s not right at all. Yes, players take the piss constantly now, it’s cynical at every step from the placing of the ball on the very edge of the corner quadrant to the constant play acting and rolling around trying to get other players booked and sent off, but this one should not have stood, particularly after he moved the refs mark. well that's the problem right there... toney scored because forest **** up, no one was looking when he moved the ball and the keeper didn't adjust the wall or his position either, what toney did shouldn't have mattered if forest were competent and again that then ignores that the wall nudges forward at every opportunity possible - but I'm sure a freekick is retaken when it hits a wall that isn't 10 yards away??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkLillis Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 3 hours ago, bobzy said: If we’re calling that cheating then every single slight advantage taken on a football pitch (taking a throw in from a different position to where the ball goes out, going down when there’s contact if you’re able to stay up, moving the ball forward when taking a free kick in your own half, the defensive wall stealing a yard or so by shuffling forward) is cheating. If that’s your view, then cool. Players cheat multiple times in every game. Cheating is a bit strong I agree….however the effort he’s goes to to cover it up is dare I say unprecedented. I don’t think I’ve seen a player do that before. Its sort of against the grain don’t you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted January 22 VT Supporter Share Posted January 22 10 minutes ago, villa4europe said: well that's the problem right there... toney scored because forest **** up, no one was looking when he moved the ball and the keeper didn't adjust the wall or his position either, what toney did shouldn't have mattered if forest were competent and again that then ignores that the wall nudges forward at every opportunity possible - but I'm sure a freekick is retaken when it hits a wall that isn't 10 yards away??? Well no, why should Forest have to account for Brentford breaking the rules. That's why there are rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 hours ago, HKP90 said: I don't really follow German football, so asking those who do- is their success down to a system, or is Alonso the real deal? Alonso seems to be the real deal in terms of tactician. No surprise that Villa are looking at a lot of their players, who they have brought in, to supplement our starting XI. Plays a very similar system to Unai as well. I think a test of his managerial capability will be what happens when he's without some players like Wirtz, Frimpong, Grimaldo, Palacios, and Boniface. Managers have fallen apart when they don't have certain players so it's a test of longevity as well. They've got a real good squad though and the manager at the right time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 hour ago, MarkLillis said: Cheating is a bit strong I agree….however the effort he’s goes to to cover it up is dare I say unprecedented. I don’t think I’ve seen a player do that before. Its sort of against the grain don’t you think? The media are pushing hard to excuse Toney. Even Dermot Gallagher is spinning stuff in favour of Toney on Sky Sports. Can’t wait for this to happen against England in the Euros now and see how the media respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 hour ago, HKP90 said: Well no, why should Forest have to account for Brentford breaking the rules. That's why there are rules. forest weren't watching, 5 men in the wall weren't watching, the keeper bizarrely wasn't watching if any one of those 6 is paying attention he doesn't score that goal, how do you have it that a team are so busy lining themselves up with a ball that they don't know where the ball is and don't say they were lining themselves up with the white foam because that's utter bollocks its absolutely terrible from forest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Toney instructs his team mate to go distract the ref before moving the ball too. It’s so dishonest on many levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 5 minutes ago, villa4europe said: forest weren't watching, 5 men in the wall weren't watching, the keeper bizarrely wasn't watching if any one of those 6 is paying attention he doesn't score that goal, how do you have it that a team are so busy lining themselves up with a ball that they don't know where the ball is and don't say they were lining themselves up with the white foam because that's utter bollocks its absolutely terrible from forest You can't move the ball from the point of the free kick though. That's the rule. If the ref wasn't distracted and doing his job, he'd have checked and moved the ball back to its original point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted January 22 VT Supporter Share Posted January 22 3 minutes ago, villa4europe said: forest weren't watching, 5 men in the wall weren't watching, the keeper bizarrely wasn't watching if any one of those 6 is paying attention he doesn't score that goal, how do you have it that a team are so busy lining themselves up with a ball that they don't know where the ball is and don't say they were lining themselves up with the white foam because that's utter bollocks its absolutely terrible from forest Sure, they might have been watching more diligently, but if they set up correctly when the ball is placed, why would they need to continue to watch to make sure that the kick taker doesn't move the ball when he's not actually allowed to. That's the ref's job. A kick is awarded in a position, and that position shouldn't change. As the ball is not taken from the location of the foul, it was an illegal kick. It should not have counted. Many laws of the game are open to interpretation, but that one is not. It's not the job of players to police the situation and account for illegality, it's the ref's. It's awful reffing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 It’s not really enforced but moving or manipulating the foam spray is a bookable offence too. 1) Toney whispers to his teammate to distract the ref so he can move the ball 2) His teammate distracted the ref and arguing about the wall as Forest adjust their wall so Toney moves the ball illegally without notice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted January 22 VT Supporter Share Posted January 22 Just now, The_Steve said: It’s not really enforced but moving or manipulating the foam spray is a bookable offence too. 1) Toney whispers to his teammate to distract the ref so he can move the ball 2) His teammate distracted the ref and arguing about the wall as Forest adjust their wall so Toney moves the ball illegally without notice Is that true, I couldn't find reference to it? That said i'd say it's arguably unsportsmanlike conduct, which while not formally defined is a booking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 5 minutes ago, HKP90 said: Is that true, I couldn't find reference to it? That said i'd say it's arguably unsportsmanlike conduct, which while not formally defined is a booking. I read it on the ESPN review: "What has irked so many is that Toney then picked up some of the referee's vanishing spray and placed it in front of the ball so his actions weren't noticed. Moving the spray is a cautionable offence, though something that's rarely seen or punished". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted January 22 VT Supporter Share Posted January 22 2 minutes ago, The_Steve said: I read it on the ESPN review: "What has irked so many is that Toney then picked up some of the referee's vanishing spray and placed it in front of the ball so his actions weren't noticed. Moving the spray is a cautionable offence, though something that's rarely seen or punished". Fair enough, I didn't know that, although it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 minutes ago, HKP90 said: Fair enough, I didn't know that, although it makes sense. Neymar got booked for it in 2015 IIRC too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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