fightoffyour Posted January 8 Author VT Supporter Share Posted January 8 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Teale's 'tache said: I believe what we are being given, judging by the crest we've seen, is a brand evolution rather than a total rebrand. If this is the case then there are definitely more restrictions than just the ones outlined in the results of the survey, and you have to start with the Lerner crest and go from there. I'd imagine they couldn't change the lion, the direction it is facing, or the star as that would kill too much branding already out there, they also likely couldn't change the colours as it would be too big a change and take the new design too far away from the Lerner crest for them to feel part of the same brand. The reason they need to feel part of the same brand is so you can phase out the Lerner badge gradually over time rather than outright change everything in one go. There'd have to be a shield shape at least similar to the original. Then add the questionnaire restrictions and you can see how the designers have been very restricted in what they can do. The text being top or bottom is a bit overblown for me, both can work and both can look unbalanced, it's the '1874' that's causing most of the balance issues in my opinion. The AV150, again in my opinion, is a good idea with good colours, it's just poorly executed, it should be more obvious what it is supposed to say. Also, launching that marque on its own, on Twitter, on the day the fans find out about the North Stand project being put on hold really made a bad first impression and those are difficult to shake. I'm not defending the crest we've seen, I'm not happy about it, even with the restrictions in place it could be better, I'm just trying to explain why the fan-made designs (my own included) haven't been working to the same restrictions and so it's much easier to make something more desirable. I agree with what you're saying and trust your insights here as a designer, but working within the restrictions of a brand evolution was never the initial remit. You have now deduced that the remit has become an evolution due to cost cutting based on the design that we've seen, and again I believe you here because it's the only plausible explanation, but the remit should still be a total rebranding rather than an evolution (and I'm not arguing with you here, I'm sure you and almost everybody else agrees). Especially given the 150th anniversary, new found success, NSWE era... Edited January 8 by fightoffyour 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 19 minutes ago, fightoffyour said: I agree with what you're saying and trust your insights here as a designer, but working within the restrictions of a brand evolution was never the initial remit. You have now deduced that the remit has become an evolution due to cost cutting based on the design that we've seen, and again I believe you here because it's the only plausible explanation, but the remit should still be a total rebranding rather than an evolution (and I'm not arguing with you here, I'm sure you and almost everybody else agrees). Especially given the 150th anniversary, new found success, NSWE era... Yeah but… why did NSWE allow us to go ahead with the round badge, have it on shirts, show it basically everywhere? That doesn’t suggest that we were ever looking at a cost cutting exercise… Things didn’t change until Heck arrived and he seems fully responsible for all the decisions and cancellations… he is wielding a lot of power… hope he can manage it properly but he’s not making a good first impression at all… does come across as quite arrogant and ignorant too but I don’t want to place definitive judgement on him this soon either… 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teale's 'tache Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 18 minutes ago, fightoffyour said: I agree with what you're saying and trust your insights here as a designer, but working within the restrictions of a brand evolution was never the initial remit. You have now deduced that the remit has become an evolution due to cost cutting based on the design that we've seen, and again I believe you here because it's the only plausible explanation, but the remit should still be a total rebranding rather than an evolution (and I'm not arguing with you here, I'm sure you and almost everybody else agrees). Especially given the 150th anniversary, new found success, NSWE era... Exactly, it's the change of brief that disappoints me the most. The crest they've produced isn't that bad once you understand the restrictions in place. As a designer I've seen plenty of good brands and the effect good branding can have, so I was very excited and hopeful that we'd be getting something that could really push the club to the next level in terms of attracting sponsors, fans and marketing, and just to finally put an end to this awful disjointed brand that has been holding us back. To still be stuck pretty much where we were, after all the faffing around and money wasted, is just very very poor in my view. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 If, for some reason, we have to stick with the same sort of thing or reduce costs… couldn’t we have just changed the colours but stuck with the same lion and even shape of the badge? Why use the same or worse (dark, barely noticeable “claret” border) colours and ADD white? There is no point in adding white… and the drop shadow is stupid and amateurish. Some sort of border or line around the lion would have been more effective than that and produceable on material… or JUST CHANGE THE BLEEDING COLOURS even just change the blue background to claret… a proper “solution” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post fightoffyour Posted January 8 Author VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted January 8 27 minutes ago, Jas10 said: If, for some reason, we have to stick with the same sort of thing or reduce costs… couldn’t we have just changed the colours but stuck with the same lion and even shape of the badge? Why use the same or worse (dark, barely noticeable “claret” border) colours and ADD white? There is no point in adding white… and the drop shadow is stupid and amateurish. Some sort of border or line around the lion would have been more effective than that and produceable on material… or JUST CHANGE THE BLEEDING COLOURS even just change the blue background to claret… a proper “solution” 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teale's 'tache Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Jas10 said: Yeah but… why did NSWE allow us to go ahead with the round badge, have it on shirts, show it basically everywhere? That doesn’t suggest that we were ever looking at a cost cutting exercise… Things didn’t change until Heck arrived and he seems fully responsible for all the decisions and cancellations… he is wielding a lot of power… hope he can manage it properly but he’s not making a good first impression at all… does come across as quite arrogant and ignorant too but I don’t want to place definitive judgement on him this soon either… I'll speculate on why, but this is just speculation so please keep that in mind. I would imagine at the beginning of the process Purslow, the owners, or whoever suggested we needed a rebrand, then most likely Purslow as CEO, went out and costed the project, how much would it cost to have the design created and rolled out everywhere in one go? Let's call that figure A, he'd also probably crunched some numbers to figure out a rough 'ROI' (Return On Investment), let's call that figure B. Purslow presented this to the owners, and everybody agreed the figures were far enough apart to make it worthwhile, a budget was set, and the project was green-lit. Purslow goes and hires a design company and the process begins, design is produced, fans are consulted, and everybody is happy by and large. Now Purslow leaves and Heck comes in with a remit to make and to save us money. He looks at the figures and he believes that figure A is far too low, it's going to cost a lot more to roll out the new brand than Purslow anticipated, and quite possibly figure B is a bit on the optimistic side, so he believes as somebody who has worked more in the field of branding than Purslow that the figures are much closer together, he takes this to the owners explaining the additional costs and the effects it will have, how much extra budget might be needed to continue and possibly at this point the roundel crest gets canned, and they then try to figure out a more cost-effective way to refresh the brand. Projects like these do get paused, cancelled, or scaled back all the time, partly because figures A and B are both difficult to calculate with any degree of accuracy. Unfortunately, this has been a very public process in a very passionate industry, and so somebody is going to have to get it in the neck, Heck is taking the heat for it at the moment and if he's got his figures wrong then he should, but if he's right then possibly not. Again to clarify, this is just speculation, I have no inside knowledge, I've just seen projects be scaled back or ended for this kind of situation before so it lines up in my mind. Edit: As @NurembergVillan has mentioned previously, the kits are produced way in advance, so I'm guessing the process had already started before Purslow left and Heck came in. Hence why we have that badge on our shirts this season. Edited January 8 by Teale's 'tache Further clarification 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Townsend Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Heck is the problem either way. It's embarrassing in our 150th year. A two year public rebrand gone wrong, whether due to cost cutting or whatever else. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DakotaVilla Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I respect the arguments made but I refuse to believe cost was a factor in the crest redesign. Heck pulled the roundel immediately on arrival so he had no time to undertake any proper ROI due diligence. Also the owners have never held back any investment, they were hardly going to start pinching pounds on the clubs new branding. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teale's 'tache Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 7 minutes ago, DakotaVilla said: I respect the arguments made but I refuse to believe cost was a factor in the crest redesign. Heck pulled the roundel immediately on arrival so he had no time to undertake any proper ROI due diligence. Also the owners have never held back any investment, they were hardly going to start pinching pounds on the clubs new branding. I believe, after a quick Google, Heck was appointed in May 2023 and the crest was announced as cancelled in September 2023, seems plenty of time to have crunched the numbers to me. I agree that the owners have never held back on investment, but at the same time, successful business people do not endlessly plough money into a project without considering if they'll get it back at some point, if the figures don't add up they'll pull the plug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 28 minutes ago, fightoffyour said: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted January 8 VT Supporter Share Posted January 8 9 minutes ago, DakotaVilla said: I respect the arguments made but I refuse to believe cost was a factor in the crest redesign. Heck pulled the roundel immediately on arrival so he had no time to undertake any proper ROI due diligence. Also the owners have never held back any investment, they were hardly going to start pinching pounds on the clubs new branding. But Heck has been very clear that his remit is to maximise revenue/profits. So that coupled with scrapping two big projects like the rebrand and the redevelopment, people are going to put 2 and 2 together Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Thinking about how many areas of the ground internally and externally, bodymoor heath, Holte Hotel, club offices etc that will require rebranding with an updated shape badge I get why the crest is more favourable over the roundel version from a cost perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted January 8 Author VT Supporter Share Posted January 8 2 minutes ago, Jas10 said: I'm even starting to like the Lerner badge now with the right colours and relative to the new one! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 minutes ago, thabucks said: Thinking about how many areas of the ground internally and externally, bodymoor heath, Holte Hotel, club offices etc that will require rebranding with an updated shape badge I get why the crest is more favourable over the roundel version from a cost perspective. Why? The shape of the shield is different as is the design compared to the Lerner crest? where is the cost saving because as I see it it all still needs to be replaced? Even the lion although the same is positioned differently. How are we cost saving because the savings, as I've said previously seem negligible? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 30 minutes ago, fightoffyour said: See… I never had a problem with the lion. I think it’s kind of symbolic and iconic… it’s recognisable and unique to us… whenever I see it I see ASTON VILLA, probably because we’ve had it for so long. It’s been put up around the stadium (as well as 2 or 3 other lions the defanged, declawed version being the worst of the lot… urgh, that first Lerner badge was an utter disgrace!) and all over Bodymoor Heath… so I can understand not changing that in particular and I’ve never had a problem with it… As you’ve demonstrated here… the problem has always been the stupid and foolish colours scheme… the lack of contrast. Not the lion… and the contrast makes it look even better. It’s bold and iconic. I think I’d actually prefer this version, to your previous one, better if it said ASTON VILLA… that’s all we needed at the bare minimum - fix the colours and have our name on it in full. But we got a lazy and inferior version instead… My personal preference is vibrant claret & blue as we wore and displayed in the 80s, particularly in 1982. But your designs and choice of colours are still elegant and smart. Again, you’ve smashed it and this is the kind of thing we need… And… if this or similar was the badge that was actually revealed… I wouldn’t really be complaining. The major problem was the colours and I won’t get tired of repeating it! Amateur, rookie error that has still not been fixed! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Townsend Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Teale's 'tache said: I believe, after a quick Google, Heck was appointed in May 2023 and the crest was announced as cancelled in September 2023, seems plenty of time to have crunched the numbers to me. I agree that the owners have never held back on investment, but at the same time, successful business people do not endlessly plough money into a project without considering if they'll get it back at some point, if the figures don't add up they'll pull the plug. No, he deferred it immediately. There was meant to be a big launch for the final home game and it got cancelled. Then he announced the round badge would be on the shirt only then in September that it would be replaced. Edited January 8 by Captain_Townsend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 39 minutes ago, fightoffyour said: You’re killing me man… because your designs/alterations are the closest I’ve seen to perfection but I know we won’t get them nor anything like them and it’s funny how simple or how little effort/change was required to make them effective… I do like that lion… one of the few I suppose Edited January 8 by Jas10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPAngel Posted January 8 VT Supporter Share Posted January 8 39 minutes ago, fightoffyour said: I cannot put in to words how beautiful this is. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Townsend Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 We were claret thiugh so isn't that too much claret Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 9 minutes ago, fightoffyour said: I'm even starting to like the Lerner badge now with the right colours and relative to the new one! Absolutely… I will continue to reiterate… the problem was the colours… moreso than anything else. You’ve emphatically proved it! Even AVFC is acceptable (although, of course, ASTON VILLA would be preferable if it worked and fitted into the overall design) and the lion looks good with the right colours! As I’ve said before, it’s not rocket science! But we are looking like proper dumbasses with the shit that is about to be revealed… there is no point to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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