Future Club Crest & Brand Identity

[matteyp]

42 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Yep - and that's the interesting thing - I mean, we've had one of the worlds foremost agencies work through it, support through innumerable focus and consultation groups and then a public survey with over 20,000 votes - all discarded for one man feeling strongly about it. 

I hope he's right in tearing things down and starting again, it kind of puts him in the position that he was in when he arrived at the 76'ers - the 76'ers were broke so he fixed them - but it feels like he's deliberately broken us so that he can get back into the position that he's used to working in. He's like the worlds best firefighter, setting fire to a house so he can show you how good he is.

He's going to have to come up with a hell of a badge to make this mess worth it.

 

The new badge isn't great so in my opinion, it is worth the time to come up with a proper vision for branding the club going forward.  The only thing you can say about the new badge is it's better than the old one.  Both disappear on the photo which is the exact opposite of what a badge is meant to do!

[fightoffyour]

The new badge doesn't work. Heck will come up with a **** 5D badge or something with that traditional Villa smell.

[HKP90]

14 minutes ago, fightoffyour said:

The new badge doesn't work. Heck will come up with a **** 5D badge or something with that traditional Villa smell.

Saltley Gas Works?

[CarryOnVilla]

3 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Yep - and that's the interesting thing - I mean, we've had one of the worlds foremost agencies work through it, support through innumerable focus and consultation groups and then a public survey with over 20,000 votes - all discarded for one man feeling strongly about it. 

I hope he's right in tearing things down and starting again, it kind of puts him in the position that he was in when he arrived at the 76'ers - the 76'ers were broke so he fixed them - but it feels like he's deliberately broken us so that he can get back into the position that he's used to working in. He's like the worlds best firefighter, setting fire to a house so he can show you how good he is.

He's going to have to come up with a hell of a badge to make this mess worth it.

 

This was the main problem from the get go. 
The questionnaire that asked the fans what elements they preferred, round shield, current shield? Star or no star, lion or no lion, Lamp or no lamp, Etc etc. With a pre existent desire of many fans wanting us to go back to the (old) round badge, they going to choose those elements. The questionnaire only asked about design elements, it never asked any intangible questions like what a badge symbolises to the fans, what it means to be a villa fan, how are we unique, What makes us different to our counterparts, etc etc. 

it was a flawed survey that created a boring contextless brief for Dragon Rouge (the design agency). Round badge, with claret lion on light blue background, says Aston Villa and 1874, also with a star. it was just instructions rather than a creative brief. 

So we got a round badge again and their opinion of what our badge should be in the lamp badge. Just two options and in large two uninspiring options, because neither had any emotional meaning. Just (well made) clean lifeless designs floating around on the screen with little to no context of how it’s going to work or symbolise.

Here’s an interview with the creative director, where she mostly talks about the functionality of the design rather than its symbology, only bit of its symbology she talks about is the lion. What it represents and the idea to flip it. everything else is functionality. 

https://www.designweek.co.uk/issues/13-march-17-march-2023/aston-villa-fc-rebrands-dragon-rouge/

A crap survey got us an average, but functional design. 

Dragon Rouge did a good job with what they had, unfortunately the club (possibly Purslow) gave them a naff brief, because they gave the fans a naff survey. 

[HKP90]

8 minutes ago, CarryOnVilla said:

This was the main problem from the get go. 
The questionnaire that asked the fans what elements they preferred, round shield, current shield? Star or no star, lion or no lion, Lamp or no lamp, Etc etc. With a pre existent desire of many fans wanting us to go back to the (old) round badge, they going to choose those elements. The questionnaire only asked about design elements, it never asked any intangible questions like what a badge symbolises to the fans, what it means to be a villa fan, how are we unique, What makes us different to our counterparts, etc etc. 

it was a flawed survey that created a boring contextless brief for Dragon Rouge (the design agency). Round badge, with claret lion on light blue background, says Aston Villa and 1874, also with a star. it was just instructions rather than a creative brief. 

So we got a round badge again and their opinion of what our badge should be in the lamp badge. Just two options and in large two uninspiring options, because neither had any emotional meaning. Just (well made) clean lifeless designs floating around on the screen with little to no context of how it’s going to work or symbolise.

Here’s an interview with the creative director, where she mostly talks about the functionality of the design rather than its symbology, only bit of its symbology she talks about is the lion. What it represents and the idea to flip it. everything else is functionality. 

https://www.designweek.co.uk/issues/13-march-17-march-2023/aston-villa-fc-rebrands-dragon-rouge/

A crap survey got us an average, but functional design. 

Dragon Rouge did a good job with what they had, unfortunately the club (possibly Purslow) gave them a naff brief, because they gave the fans a naff survey. 

I seem to remember it did to some degree. Asked about history vs modern etc. Asked about the star.

[CarryOnVilla]

2 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

I seem to remember it did to some degree. Asked about history vs modern etc. Asked about the star.

Probably did, I can’t remember it fully, just lots of poll type questions about each individual element.
I don’t particularly remember If the star question was asked in a contextual way or not, was it asked like “do you want the badge to have the star of 82?” Or “do you want the badge to carry on symbolising the 82 win?”

for most fans, the answer is probably yes to both questions, but one talks about the element and the other talks about its symbology. Are we now a club that looks back or looks forward, particularly about that win.  

history vs modern question could answer that question, but it could be interpreted as do we want a traditional design or modern design. 

poll like surveys are great for gaging options in a numeric way, but often needs more to get context, to capture the feeling 

[allani]

2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

In fairness, it was under control before he arrived - this isn't an accident or a storm, this is something Heck has chosen to do.

It's a strange approach, hopefully he knows what he's doing.

 

Maybe NSWE thought that the new brand was a disaster and that was one of the reasons why they recruited someone who has a global reputation for being an expert in this field?  I would be very surprised if NSWE thought that the new design was brilliant, appointed Heck and then after one meeting with him decided that they didn't like the new badge and immediately sanctioned a new re-branding exercise.  There is no way that Heck could abandon the re-branding and start a new project without the approval of the owners.

I know we disagree on the quality of the new badge.  Who knows whether we will agree on any new brand / badge (I hope we do because that probably means we've come up with a corker ).  But I just can't see that NSWE would allow Heck to just change strategy just for the heck of it.  I'm convinced that Wes was underwhelmed, Nas agreed and this is the reason why Heck was appointed.  After all, despite all the things he did at the 76ers in addition to the branding, he is still famous for being a sports brand expert rather than a sports administrator.

[OutByEaster?]

It wasn't just a survey though, there were dozens of meetings with fan representatives; the regular supporters group, a convened group representing younger fans, a group representing international fans, the FA and government through the new regulations on objects of cultural significance - an awful lot of work went into trying to find a badge that would be the right fit, culturally, for the club.

Of course you can argue that the result is subjectively one you like or don't like, or objectively if it's any good, but they did all the stuff, they asked the questions, they thought the thoughts, they put in all the ground work all the stuff you'd expect, and they came up with a badge.

How much of that was influenced by the personal opinion of the CEO at the time certainly isn't beyond question, Mr Purslow had a very clear idea on a lot of things that were based entirely on his gut feeling and perhaps too much influence through that in a number of ways.-The issue for me is that we seem to be abandoning the idea of doing all the stuff and all the ground work, we're doing away with the meetings, the groups and the surveys and going again, but this time with only the gut feeling of Mr Heck as our guide.

And what we'll get is a badge that some people like and some don't, one where you can argue about whether the result is subjectively one you like or objectively any good - it's not a science, it's opinion, and we're moving from a multitude of opinions to just one - now it might be from a design point that a single vision works better than a collective opinion, some things are like that, and Mr Heck has a very good reputation for his gut feeling and his ability to produce effective branding - but for me there's something about the impermanence of having Lerner's badge this morning, Purslow;s badge this afternoon and Heck;s badge tonight that I don't like - I'd just like to see us stop mucking about with the club's emblem, because I think at heart that in itself is the antithesis of the values I think the club stands for.

I don't ever want us to be talking about Lerner's badge, Purslow's badge or Heck's badge ever again, I want to talk about Aston Villa's badge - and whatever we decide I'd like us to commit to it for forty, fifty, a hundred years - I don't want a badge for every CEO, the values of Villa are beyond that, this isn't a toy, we are the founding father, the bank of England, we should be the model of stability and permanence, beyond the fickle finger of fashion - I don't need to love the badge, I'd rather not hate it, but I'd like to know that Aston Villa will still be Aston Villa long after I've gone, I am disposable, Mr Purslow is disposable, Mr Heck is disposable, Nas and Wes are disposable, the emblem of this fine old institution should not be.

 

[OutByEaster?]

10 minutes ago, allani said:

Maybe NSWE thought that the new brand was a disaster.

It's their new brand - they instigated and they authorised it - if they thought it was a disaster I'm not sure why they'd go ahead with it in the first place.

The whole thing is just very odd.

 

[allani]

21 minutes ago, CarryOnVilla said:

Probably did, I can’t remember it fully, just lots of poll type questions about each individual element.
I don’t particularly remember If the star question was asked in a contextual way or not, was it asked like “do you want the badge to have the star of 82?” Or “do you want the badge to carry on symbolising the 82 win?”

for most fans, the answer is probably yes to both questions, but one talks about the element and the other talks about its symbology. Are we now a club that looks back or looks forward, particularly about that win.  

history vs modern question could answer that question, but it could be interpreted as do we want a traditional design or modern design. 

poll like surveys are great for gaging options in a numeric way, but often needs more to get context, to capture the feeling 

I agree entirely.  When I got a design company to work on my brand - I deliberately didn't give them any information about what I wanted it to look like.  My brief was all about what I wanted the brand "to say" - i.e. what people would think about my company based on the brand.  I also gave them a long list of companies / brands that I liked or would like my company to be compared to - i.e. if we were a F1 team then I would want us to be like Williams (back when they had the Martini branding), etc.  They then came back with a variety of options (which were quite wildly different) and we talked through what we liked about each option and whether it hit the brief.

Obviously it is more difficult when you have a 150 year old "brand" as there are elements that almost become sancrosanct.  But then they decided to flip the lion (probably the main element) for no discernable reason. 

[allani]

12 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

It's their new brand - they instigated and they authorised it - if they thought it was a disaster I'm not sure why they'd go ahead with it in the first place.

The whole thing is just very odd.

 

I agree it is all a bit odd.  But I just can't quite see how the Heck appointment makes sense if NSWE were completely happy with the new brand - especially as Heck has said that his sole focus is on Aston Villa not branding / marketing the whole V-Sports family.

15 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I don't ever want us to be talking about Lerner's badge, Purslow's badge or Heck's badge ever again, I want to talk about Aston Villa's badge - and whatever we decide I'd like us to commit to it for forty, fifty, a hundred years - I don't want a badge for every CEO, the values of Villa are beyond that, this isn't a toy, we are the founding father, the bank of England, we should be the model of stability and permanence, beyond the fickle finger of fashion - I don't need to love the badge, I'd rather not hate it, but I'd like to know that Aston Villa will still be Aston Villa long after I've gone, I am disposable, Mr Purslow is disposable, Mr Heck is disposable, Nas and Wes are disposable, the emblem of this fine old institution should not be.

 

I 100% agree with you on these two points.  And I guess maybe the last highlighted comment is key to me - the new badge doesn't look like Aston Villa (in my opinion), it looks too much like an imitation of Chelsea.  We are better than that.  I want us to have a badge / design that resonates with Villa and that is immediately recognisable as us.  I don't think the new badge does and that is why I think it fails.

I hope that we get this sorted quickly and we can move on to other important issues that need resolving.  I slightly disagree that the new badge needs to last for 40, 50 or 100 years - brands do tend to evolve over time.  But hopefully it is an evolution that continues to reflect the spirit and meaning of Aston Villa and continues to uniquely identify us and differentiate us from other clubs.

[CarryOnVilla]

13 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

It wasn't just a survey though, there were dozens of meetings with fan representatives; the regular supporters group, a convened group representing younger fans, a group representing international fans, the FA and government through the new regulations on objects of cultural significance - an awful lot of work went into trying to find a badge that would be right for the fit, culturally, for the club.

Of course you can argue that the result is subjectively one you like or don't like, or objectively if it's any good, but they did all the stuff, they asked the questions, they thought the thoughts, they put in all the ground work all the stuff you'd expect, and they came up with a badge.

How much of that was influenced by the personal opinion of the CEO at the time certainly isn't beyond question, Mr Purslow had a very clear idea on a lot of things that were based entirely on his gut feeling and perhaps too much influence through that in a number of ways.-The issue for me is that we seem to be abandoning the idea of doing all the stuff and all the ground work, we're doing away with the meetings, the groups and the surveys and going again, but this time with only the gut feeling of Mr Heck as our guide.

And what we'll get is a badge that some people like and some don't, one where you can argue about whether the result is subjectively one you like or objectively any good - it's not a science, it's opinion, and we're moving from a multitude of opinions to just one - now it might be from a design point that a single vision works better than a collective opinion, some things are like that, and Mr Heck has a very good reputation for his gut feeling and his ability to produce effective branding - but for me there's something about the impermanence of having Lerner's badge this morning, Purslow;s badge this afternoon and Heck;s badge tonight that I don't like - I'd just like to see us stop mucking about with the club's emblem, because I think at heart that in itself is the antithesis of the values I think the club stands for.

I don't ever want us to be talking about Lerner's badge, Purslow's badge or Heck's badge ever again, I want to talk about Aston Villa's badge - and whatever we decide I'd like us to commit to it for forty, fifty, a hundred years - I don't want a badge for every CEO, the values of Villa are beyond that, this isn't a toy, we are the founding father, the bank of England, we should be the model of stability and permanence, beyond the fickle finger of fashion - I don't need to love the badge, I'd rather not hate it, but I'd like to know that Aston Villa will still be Aston Villa long after I've gone, I am disposable, Mr Purslow is disposable, Mr Heck is disposable, Nas and Wes are disposable, the emblem of this fine old institution should not be.

 

I believe everyone wants this.everyone from the fans, to players, to the executives and to even Heck himself. 

we no longer wanting to be Pepsi changing our branding every ten years. we want to be Coca-Cola, forever timeless! 

However, we’ve been Pepsi for so long, our branding is everywhere. BMH feels different to Villa park, The tickets/season ticket cards, feel different to the programs and both feel different to Villa park, As well as the social media.. everything is off sync, and now we got a new badge, with nothing else.. no unifying brand identity. I don’t think that was fully planned either. We need more than a new badge, we need to find our branding as a whole. Starting off with our core ideals, what are Villa’s brand pillars, what are we building this off? What have we always built this off? 

I believe someone like Heck knows it takes more than a logo/badge to make a brand. 

Believe it or not, his badge change at the 76ers wasn’t even a change, it was a reintroduction to an old badge, much like our current one, was meant to be. So I don’t believe he’s trying to scrap everything for his own vanity, but to actually get the branding in sync and authentic, not just to the fans, to the rest of the world as well. 
 

 

[CarryOnVilla]

34 minutes ago, allani said:

I agree entirely.  When I got a design company to work on my brand - I deliberately didn't give them any information about what I wanted it to look like.  My brief was all about what I wanted the brand "to say" - i.e. what people would think about my company based on the brand.  I also gave them a long list of companies / brands that I liked or would like my company to be compared to - i.e. if we were a F1 team then I would want us to be like Williams (back when they had the Martini branding), etc.  They then came back with a variety of options (which were quite wildly different) and we talked through what we liked about each option and whether it hit the brief.

Obviously it is more difficult when you have a 150 year old "brand" as there are elements that almost become sancrosanct.  But then they decided to flip the lion (probably the main element) for no discernable reason. 

As a designer I like clients like you. I don’t want instructions, I want to know how your business works and what makes it tick. What are the goals short, mid and long. the more I know the vibe of a business the beater the work will be. particularly when I find something unique about that business 

[OutByEaster?]

5 minutes ago, CarryOnVilla said:

I believe everyone wants this.everyone from the fans, to players, to the executives and to even Heck himself. 

we no longer wanting to be Pepsi changing our branding every ten years. we want to be Coca-Cola, forever timeless! 

However, we’ve been Pepsi for so long, our branding is everywhere. BMH feels different to Villa park, The tickets/season ticket cards, feel different to the programs and both feel different to Villa park, As well as the social media.. everything is off sync, and now we got a new badge, with nothing else.. no unifying brand identity. I don’t think that was fully planned either. We need more than a new badge, we need to find our branding as a whole. Starting off with our core ideals, what are Villa’s brand pillars, what are we building this off? What have we always built this off? 

I believe someone like Heck knows it takes more than a logo/badge to make a brand. 

Believe it or not, his badge change at the 76ers wasn’t even a change, it was a reintroduction to an old badge, much like our current one, was meant to be. So I don’t believe he’s trying to scrap everything for his own vanity, but to actually get the branding in sync and authentic, not just to the fans, to the rest of the world as well. 
 

That's the thing though, we've just been through a massive process to address this, and come up with a whole range of things across the new branding , we produced a unifying brand identity, for the badge, for social media, for BH, the stadium, TV, club stationary, club suits, everything - it's just that we've abandoned all of those things except the badge (which we've only kept because it was already in production on shirts)..

What we did is exactly what Heck did in Philadelphia. We just seem to want to do it twice.

[CarryOnVilla]

1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said:

That's the thing though, we've just been through a massive process to address this, and come up with a whole range of things across the new branding , we produced a unifying brand identity, for the badge, for social media, for BH, the stadium, TV, club stationary, club suits, everything - it's just that we've abandoned all of those things except the badge (which we've only kept because it was already in production on shirts)..

What we did is exactly what Heck did in Philadelphia. We just seem to want to do it twice.

Forgive me, but I’ve seen to to miss all unifying things you speak of. I haven’t come across any of that other vague plans mention by the badges creative director. Please fill me in (Kenneth.gif)

 

 

[HKP90]

41 minutes ago, CarryOnVilla said:

I believe everyone wants this.everyone from the fans, to players, to the executives and to even Heck himself. 

we no longer wanting to be Pepsi changing our branding every ten years. we want to be Coca-Cola, forever timeless! 

However, we’ve been Pepsi for so long, our branding is everywhere. BMH feels different to Villa park, The tickets/season ticket cards, feel different to the programs and both feel different to Villa park, As well as the social media.. everything is off sync, and now we got a new badge, with nothing else.. no unifying brand identity. I don’t think that was fully planned either. We need more than a new badge, we need to find our branding as a whole. Starting off with our core ideals, what are Villa’s brand pillars, what are we building this off? What have we always built this off? 

I believe someone like Heck knows it takes more than a logo/badge to make a brand. 

Believe it or not, his badge change at the 76ers wasn’t even a change, it was a reintroduction to an old badge, much like our current one, was meant to be. So I don’t believe he’s trying to scrap everything for his own vanity, but to actually get the branding in sync and authentic, not just to the fans, to the rest of the world as well. 
 

 

In fairness, this is the think that's been most noticeably missing since his appointment. I've never known two badges, two representations of the club, to be used simultaneously in my lifetime supporting Villa. 

[CarryOnVilla]

1 minute ago, HKP90 said:

In fairness, this is the think that's been most noticeably missing since his appointment. I've never known two badges, two representations of the club, to be used simultaneously in my lifetime supporting Villa. 

The breaks were put on too late, production started on the kit and the badges already . so a cop out line was needed, “it’s a tribute to the 82 badge” 

So we gotta suffer 2 badges for a season, tbf, I don’t think wider football or punditry  has noticed or even care. Any embarrassment, is internal to the club and fans.

so it’s not terrible from a perspective view point at least 

 

[Stephen_Evans]

7 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

In fairness, this is the think that's been most noticeably missing since his appointment. I've never known two badges, two representations of the club, to be used simultaneously in my lifetime supporting Villa. 

Were you alive in 1992/93 and 1999/2000?.  In both season older away kits with older badges were used.  The white Umbro one in 1992/93 and the blue/green thing in 1999/2000.

[HKP90]

Just now, CarryOnVilla said:

The breaks were put on too late, production started on the kit and the badges already . so a cop out line was needed, “it’s a tribute to the 82 badge” 

So we gotta suffer 2 badges for a season, tbf, I don’t think wider football or punditry  has noticed or even care. Any embarrassment, is internal to the club and fans.

so it’s not terrible from a perspective view point at least 

 

Oh, i'm not embarrassed, and it's not the end of the world, but it doesn't give off the air of professionalism that we all suspect we've been trying to achieve. 

[HKP90]

Just now, Stephen_Evans said:

Were you alive in 1992/93 and 1999/2000?.  In both season older away kits with older badges were used.  The white Umbro one in 1992/93 and the blue/green thing in 1999/2000.

Well I started following Villa in 94, so I missed the early one, but I didn't pick up on the 99/00 incident. I will have to go and investigate that, so thanks. 

The only caveat I would use is that we were under Doug (bicycle kick) Ellis at the time, and he was never really known for his drive for professionalism.