Season 22/23 Target League Position

[hippo]

15 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

IMO they improved as a team last season. As did a number of key individuals. Felt to me more tactically clear and effective than late Smith had done and certain players got it and made great strides in the system.

Where it was less effective seemed to me for the most part much more down to certain individuals clearly unsuited to the roles they were asked to perform rather than major failings of the setup itself. IMO we've already fixed the biggest of these problem areas and we are clearly still looking for more players with this system in mind before the window closes.

Hmmmm 

We've only really signed 2 players who can expect to be first team regulars. Welcome though they are without increased team cohesion and play I think there impact may not be as great as some expect.

 

[nick76]

23 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

IMO they improved as a team last season. As did a number of key individuals. Felt to me more tactically clear and effective than late Smith had done and certain players got it and made great strides in the system.

Where it was less effective seemed to me for the most part much more down to certain individuals clearly unsuited to the roles they were asked to perform rather than major failings of the setup itself. IMO we've already fixed the biggest of these problem areas and we are clearly still looking for more players with this system in mind before the window closes.

The problem was that Gerrard couldn’t get any cohesion of the players.  I don’t even understand how you think they were improved, more tactically clear and made great strides.  We don’t even know what the system he is playing in the attacking half at the end of last season, from two up front to one upfront just as one example.  Visually you couldn’t see it and results didn’t show it especially 2022 form.

[brummybloke]

4 hours ago, nick76 said:

I think a lot of people are getting sun stroke from the heat the last few days, it can be the only reason people are losing their minds.

You being one of them with your selective quoting of where I hope we would finish

[nepal_villan]

Last season we got zero points against Watford and only gained 4 out of 36 possible points  versus the ESL clubs.   If we just slightly improve here, we’ll easily be challenging for a top half or higher. 

[Zhan_Zhuang]

Seventh requires quality, cohesion, drive and a slice of luck.

Villa really need to make Villa Park a fortress and win a fair few matches on the road; if we can do that then sixth is a possibility. 

Every season a team manages to hit the ground running and build from there, perhaps this season it will be Villa? Let's hope so it is long overdue!

[tomsky_11]

10 hours ago, nick76 said:

We don’t even know what the system he is playing in the attacking half at the end of last season, from two up front to one upfront just as one example.

I mean, we did. There was plenty said about how Gerrard set up at Rangers, which was likely what he'd implement here. There was literally even a coaching video of Beale breaking down various elements of his tactical preferences. Within the first 15 mins of the first game you could already see plenty of these elements put in place (granted we probably saw more on the defence side early on, but that's understandable, and I think Gerrard even said as much, that the number one priorty was defence.)

The attacking switch from 2 to 1 up front is a minor tweak in the wider set up. Fundamentally we're still looking to form a front 5 in attack in either scenario with the wing backs and attacking mid(s). Again plenty written about this set up across football in recent years.

10 hours ago, nick76 said:

I don’t even understand how you think they were improved

I mean we literally did improve from the start of the season we'd had. 9th for points, 8th for goals conceded, 7th for goals scored (especially impressive given our much maligned on here strike force) since Gerrard arrived. Cash is probably the stand out in terms of individuals improving, but given how fundamental his role is in the system, I'd place a lot of weight on this. Ramsey put in some great performances and I'd argue we saw a vastly improved Buendia as well, even if in limited appearances. Both Ings and Watkins offensive output improved as well as the season went on. Hard to argue the January signings didn't raise the level of quality in the squad either.

10 hours ago, nick76 said:

Visually you couldn’t see it and results didn’t show it especially 2022 form.

The results were ok. 9th in form was fine for last season when results became less important than continuing to implement the style that Gerrard wanted, to ultimately find out who worked in it and who didn't, in preparation for this summer and the upcoming season.

And I'd argue ignoring the results you could absolutely the improvement in performances. There were very few games where we didn't look the better side for a reasonable portion. Arsenal at home is the only one I can think of where it never felt we were in it. Watford and Newcastle also felt disappointing perhaps given the opposition but tbf to Newcastle they were obviously on a high and managed that game very well, and even so we had plenty of chances in both that we should have done better with. Every other defeat or draw under Gerrard felt like the result could have easily gone another way.

Much has been made of the results against the top 7 being poor with just the one draw from 9 such games under Gerrard. But I can't remember the last time our performances have been as consistently good against the top teams, where we've looked on top for large spells or held our own for so long. All but two were swung by one goal. The two that weren't were Chelsea, which was lost because of individuals errors after we'd dominated the first half, and Spurs, where we really should've been clear by half time. The margins were tight enough that it wouldn't take a big improvement or a bit more luck for these kind of games to start swinging our way.

11 hours ago, hippo said:

We've only really signed 2 players who can expect to be first team regulars. Welcome though they are without increased team cohesion and play I think there impact may not be as great as some expect.

I think one of those signings is absolutely fundamental to the entire set up working more effectively. We've created plenty in the way of goal scoring opportunities and scored plenty of goals under Gerrard. On numerous occassions though (Spurs being a particularly stark example) we've been vunerable due to the lack of the right player in the '6' role throwing off both the midfield and the defence. Kamara from what I can tell seems almost perfectly suited to this role and fixing this issue, making us much more defensively solid, especially on the counter, as well as seeing better ball retention in midfield. Carlos, as well as looking like a big defensive improvement, also seems well suited to how we want to play in possession. Even a small improvement from 8th in goals conceded should see us looking to climb the table. Keep scoring at the rate we were under Gerrard last season as well and we are absolutely pushing at the top 7.

[Vive_La_Villa]

10 hours ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

Seventh requires quality, cohesion, drive and a slice of luck.

Villa really need to make Villa Park a fortress and win a fair few matches on the road; if we can do that then sixth is a possibility. 

Every season a team manages to hit the ground running and build from there, perhaps this season it will be Villa? Let's hope so it is long overdue!

This is so key. Our home record has been poor for way too long. Really needs to improve. 
 

[nick76]

30 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

I mean, we did. There was plenty said about how Gerrard set up at Rangers, which was likely what he'd implement here. There was literally even a coaching video of Beale breaking down various elements of his tactical preferences. Within the first 15 mins of the first game you could already see plenty of these elements put in place (granted we probably saw more on the defence side early on, but that's understandable, and I think Gerrard even said as much, that the number one priorty was defence.)

The attacking switch from 2 to 1 up front is a minor tweak in the wider set up. Fundamentally we're still looking to form a front 5 in attack in either scenario with the wing backs and attacking mid(s). Again plenty written about this set up across football in recent years.

I mean we literally did improve from the start of the season we'd had. 9th for points, 8th for goals conceded, 7th for goals scored (especially impressive given our much maligned on here strike force) since Gerrard arrived. Cash is probably the stand out in terms of individuals improving, but given how fundamental his role is in the system, I'd place a lot of weight on this. Ramsey put in some great performances and I'd argue we saw a vastly improved Buendia as well, even if in limited appearances. Both Ings and Watkins offensive output improved as well as the season went on. Hard to argue the January signings didn't raise the level of quality in the squad either.

The results were ok. 9th in form was fine for last season when results became less important than continuing to implement the style that Gerrard wanted, to ultimately find out who worked in it and who didn't, in preparation for this summer and the upcoming season.

And I'd argue ignoring the results you could absolutely the improvement in performances. There were very few games where we didn't look the better side for a reasonable portion. Arsenal at home is the only one I can think of where it never felt we were in it. Watford and Newcastle also felt disappointing perhaps given the opposition but tbf to Newcastle they were obviously on a high and managed that game very well, and even so we had plenty of chances in both that we should have done better with. Every other defeat or draw under Gerrard felt like the result could have easily gone another way.

Much has been made of the results against the top 7 being poor with just the one draw from 9 such games under Gerrard. But I can't remember the last time our performances have been as consistently good against the top teams, where we've looked on top for large spells or held our own for so long. All but two were swung by one goal. The two that weren't were Chelsea, which was lost because of individuals errors after we'd dominated the first half, and Spurs, where we really should've been clear by half time. The margins were tight enough that it wouldn't take a big improvement or a bit more luck for these kind of games to start swinging our way.

I think one of those signings is absolutely fundamental to the entire set up working more effectively. We've created plenty in the way of goal scoring opportunities and scored plenty of goals under Gerrard. On numerous occassions though (Spurs being a particularly stark example) we've been vunerable due to the lack of the right player in the '6' role throwing off both the midfield and the defence. Kamara from what I can tell seems almost perfectly suited to this role and fixing this issue, making us much more defensively solid, especially on the counter, as well as seeing better ball retention in midfield. Carlos, as well as looking like a big defensive improvement, also seems well suited to how we want to play in possession. Even a small improvement from 8th in goals conceded should see us looking to climb the table. Keep scoring at the rate we were under Gerrard last season as well and we are absolutely pushing at the top 7.

I appreciate the massive effort you have gone into responding but I disagree with many, if not most of what you responded to my stuff.  My response won’t be long because the game is about to start but we were poor for so much of the season.  His (Gerrard) initial six games were great, that’s what we wanted and we had three games around Feb/Mar that we won on the trot that looked great but either side of that we looked poor, not had good cohesion and that’s excluding the scores.  Those 9 games made all your stats above and look great but doesn’t hide the on the pitch problems even finishing the end of season reasonably poor only beating relegated teams.

 

https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/aston-villa/2021-22/fixtures-and-results.html

Edited July 20, 2022 by nick76

[hippo]

1 hour ago, tomsky_11 said:

I mean, we did. There was plenty said about how Gerrard set up at Rangers, which was likely what he'd implement here. There was literally even a coaching video of Beale breaking down various elements of his tactical preferences. Within the first 15 mins of the first game you could already see plenty of these elements put in place (granted we probably saw more on the defence side early on, but that's understandable, and I think Gerrard even said as much, that the number one priorty was defence.)

The attacking switch from 2 to 1 up front is a minor tweak in the wider set up. Fundamentally we're still looking to form a front 5 in attack in either scenario with the wing backs and attacking mid(s). Again plenty written about this set up across football in recent years.

I mean we literally did improve from the start of the season we'd had. 9th for points, 8th for goals conceded, 7th for goals scored (especially impressive given our much maligned on here strike force) since Gerrard arrived. Cash is probably the stand out in terms of individuals improving, but given how fundamental his role is in the system, I'd place a lot of weight on this. Ramsey put in some great performances and I'd argue we saw a vastly improved Buendia as well, even if in limited appearances. Both Ings and Watkins offensive output improved as well as the season went on. Hard to argue the January signings didn't raise the level of quality in the squad either.

The results were ok. 9th in form was fine for last season when results became less important than continuing to implement the style that Gerrard wanted, to ultimately find out who worked in it and who didn't, in preparation for this summer and the upcoming season.

And I'd argue ignoring the results you could absolutely the improvement in performances. There were very few games where we didn't look the better side for a reasonable portion. Arsenal at home is the only one I can think of where it never felt we were in it. Watford and Newcastle also felt disappointing perhaps given the opposition but tbf to Newcastle they were obviously on a high and managed that game very well, and even so we had plenty of chances in both that we should have done better with. Every other defeat or draw under Gerrard felt like the result could have easily gone another way.

Much has been made of the results against the top 7 being poor with just the one draw from 9 such games under Gerrard. But I can't remember the last time our performances have been as consistently good against the top teams, where we've looked on top for large spells or held our own for so long. All but two were swung by one goal. The two that weren't were Chelsea, which was lost because of individuals errors after we'd dominated the first half, and Spurs, where we really should've been clear by half time. The margins were tight enough that it wouldn't take a big improvement or a bit more luck for these kind of games to start swinging our way.

I think one of those signings is absolutely fundamental to the entire set up working more effectively. We've created plenty in the way of goal scoring opportunities and scored plenty of goals under Gerrard. On numerous occassions though (Spurs being a particularly stark example) we've been vunerable due to the lack of the right player in the '6' role throwing off both the midfield and the defence. Kamara from what I can tell seems almost perfectly suited to this role and fixing this issue, making us much more defensively solid, especially on the counter, as well as seeing better ball retention in midfield. Carlos, as well as looking like a big defensive improvement, also seems well suited to how we want to play in possession. Even a small improvement from 8th in goals conceded should see us looking to climb the table. Keep scoring at the rate we were under Gerrard last season as well and we are absolutely pushing at the top 7.

All about opinions.

But I'm obviously not seeing the same as yourself.

IMO Gerrard struggled to implement his favoured system. 

Hopefully with the addition of Critchley we have appealing style of play that players and supporters can buy into.

[tomsky_11]

17 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I appreciate the massive effort you have gone into responding but I disagree with many, if not most of what you responded to my stuff.  My response won’t be long because the game is about to start but we were poor for so much of the season.  His (Gerrard) initial six games were great, that’s what we wanted and we had three games around Feb/Mar that we won on the trot that looked great but either side of that we looked poor, not had good cohesion and that’s excluding the scores.  Those 9 games made all your stats above and look great but doesn’t hide the on the pitch problems even finishing the end of season reasonably poor only beating relegated teams.

 

https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/aston-villa/2021-22/fixtures-and-results.html

This is just a list of results that entirely ignores how these games actually went. All the defeats bar Wolves were top 7 teams. And all bar Arsenal were close.

West Ham - At least even for 70 mins until a change of shape and the Yarmalenko goal, more shots, more possession, some exceptional Fabianski saves.

Wolves - individual errors for goals (multiple players falling over, own goal), more shots, more possession, exceptional late save from Sa.

Spurs - Should have been two or three ahead at half time but for poor finishing and Lloris having incredible game. That second half doesn't happen with Kamara and Carlos in the team.

Leicester - We set up for counter attacking. Leicester barely had a sniff. We were only team that looked like winning this one.

Burnley - a penalty and world class Pope saves got them a point. We were otherwise completely dominant against team still fighting for something.

Liverpool and Man City - one goal defeats against two of the best sides in the world, both chasing for the title, where we threaten both and both argueably turned following late, not like-for-like substitutions.

[Zatman]

50 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I appreciate the massive effort you have gone into responding but I disagree with many, if not most of what you responded to my stuff.  My response won’t be long because the game is about to start but we were poor for so much of the season.  His (Gerrard) initial six games were great, that’s what we wanted and we had three games around Feb/Mar that we won on the trot that looked great but either side of that we looked poor, not had good cohesion and that’s excluding the scores.  Those 9 games made all your stats above and look great but doesn’t hide the on the pitch problems even finishing the end of season reasonably poor only beating relegated teams.

 

https://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/aston-villa/2021-22/fixtures-and-results.html

first half today has been just as boring and tedious as we seen last season, its only a friendly yes but its 2 games before the start of the season and we still have no actual pattern of play

Brisbane would probably struggle vs Walsall, they have a lad that is 33 and last played in England for Bury and he looks better than some of ours today

 

[nick76]

1 minute ago, tomsky_11 said:

This is just a list of results that entirely ignores how these games actually went. All the defeats bar Wolves were top 7 teams. And all bar Arsenal were close.

West Ham - At least even for 70 mins until a change of shape and the Yarmalenko goal, more shots, more possession, some exceptional Fabianski saves.

Wolves - individual errors for goals (multiple players falling over, own goal), more shots, more possession, exceptional late save from Sa.

Spurs - Should have been two or three ahead at half time but for poor finishing and Lloris having incredible game. That second half doesn't happen with Kamara and Carlos in the team.

Leicester - We set up for counter attacking. Leicester barely had a sniff. We were only team that looked like winning this one.

Burnley - a penalty and world class Pope saves got them a point. We were otherwise completely dominant against team still fighting for something.

Liverpool and Man City - one goal defeats against two of the best sides in the world, both chasing for the title, where we threaten both and both argueably turned following late, not like-for-like substitutions.

Guess we’ll have to just agree to disagree.  

We are obviously seeing different things.  

The big thing on this website towards the end of the season was the discussion about lack of cohesion on the pitch from many many commentators.  

Added to that this close season people are talking about if only we can get some cohesion, style and play now we have a better squad we may get closer to the European places but that is dependent on Gerrard finding all that because believe he has the players to do that now (I still think we are one or two short).  

I’d love to have your view but like many on here I’m not seeing what you are seeing.  It’s good because it’s all about opinions, we just differ.  

The other problem you have is that the PL is about those fine margins, there isn’t masses of difference between a lot of those teams, the teams that get the right side of that generally are more successful.  Even in your analysis we are almost always on the wrong side of it.  There is always an excuse why we miss out.  If the team knew the play, were more cohesive, understood each other and it worked we wouldn’t need excuses every game as you were alluding to.

[tomsky_11]

9 minutes ago, hippo said:

IMO Gerrard struggled to implement his favoured system.

IMO he didn't struggle to implement it. The changes from Smith and in line with what had been seen at Rangers were quite clear. Plenty of players got it, implemented it and improved to varying degrees. Some players just weren't the right fit for it and let the whole system down on occasion. Add in a bunch of shite reffing, individual errors, bad luck and worldie goalkeeping performances and it's no wonder the results were mixed. And yet, still 9th in form since Gerrard arrive, 8th goals conceded, 7th goals scored. If that us uncohesive and with obvious personnel gaps then fine.

Also don't get this repeated cohesion point that keeps coming up. We created plenty of chances and scored plenty of goals. We should've arguably had more but for some poor finishing and excellent keeping. And defensively, bar Spurs and some late periods in games following subs that are clearly not the same quality, we've looked much tighter and more compact. None of this screams lack of cohesion to me.

[nick76]

3 minutes ago, Zatman said:

first half today has been just as boring and tedious as we seen last season, its only a friendly yes but its 2 games before the start of the season and we still have no actual pattern of play

Brisbane would probably struggle vs Walsall, they have a lad that is 33 and last played in England for Bury and he looks better than some of ours today

 

My worry is that we don’t create clear cut chances or get many shots on target.  We literally have Coutinho, Bailey and Traore on the pitch and we’ve create nothing…how is that possible.  It’s only preseason I know that but as you say it’s worrying because it resembles what we’ve seen before and thus is a warning for this upcoming season against better opposition.  The attacking side of our team has talent but no cohesion, ideas, way of playing that is working.

[tomsky_11]

10 minutes ago, Zatman said:

first half today has been just as boring and tedious as we seen last season, its only a friendly yes but its 2 games before the start of the season and we still have no actual pattern of play

Brisbane would probably struggle vs Walsall, they have a lad that is 33 and last played in England for Bury and he looks better than some of ours today

 

Digne and Coutinho having very off games form what I've seen. Still should probably be ahead. Not sure we'll see Coutinho operating so deep going forward though, especially if we are looking for another midfielder.

[hippo]

1 hour ago, tomsky_11 said:

This is just a list of results that entirely ignores how these games actually went. All the defeats bar Wolves were top 7 teams. And all bar Arsenal were close.

West Ham - At least even for 70 mins until a change of shape and the Yarmalenko goal, more shots, more possession, some exceptional Fabianski saves.

Wolves - individual errors for goals (multiple players falling over, own goal), more shots, more possession, exceptional late save from Sa.

Spurs - Should have been two or three ahead at half time but for poor finishing and Lloris having incredible game. That second half doesn't happen with Kamara and Carlos in the team.

Leicester - We set up for counter attacking. Leicester barely had a sniff. We were only team that looked like winning this one.

Burnley - a penalty and world class Pope saves got them a point. We were otherwise completely dominant against team still fighting for something.

Liverpool and Man City - one goal defeats against two of the best sides in the world, both chasing for the title, where we threaten both and both argueably turned following late, not like-for-like substitutions.

Even if that is true - what makes you think we are going to be on the other side of those fine margins next season ?

[tomsky_11]

2 hours ago, hippo said:

Even if that is true - what makes you think we are going to be on the other side of those fine margins next season ?

Plenty that I've already mentioned. For a start, player for player we'll be better than last season. Expect Kamara to be huge for us. Carlos also. We should have even better control of games because of those two. Improved depth in squad as well, less likely to see late collapses if we've got more suitable bench options. We've still got over a month of the window left and I don't expect we're done signing yet.

Beyond that, key retained players have got six months in Gerrard's system to build on, a full preseason to work with now, last season's signings being more settled (Bailey already looking more lively in preseason), Ramsey progression and then hopefully a bit more luck with injuries, in game decisions, etc. because definitely didn't feel we had the rub of the green very often last season.

[tomsky_11]

3 hours ago, nick76 said:

My worry is that we don’t create clear cut chances or get many shots on target.  We literally have Coutinho, Bailey and Traore on the pitch and we’ve create nothing…how is that possible.  It’s only preseason I know that but as you say it’s worrying because it resembles what we’ve seen before and thus is a warning for this upcoming season against better opposition.  The attacking side of our team has talent but no cohesion, ideas, way of playing that is working.

7th best scorers in the league under Gerrard feels like enough to be in with a shot of 7th, if we just maintain what we did last season. That's before we get to the improvements we've already made this summer.

Not sure today is particularly reflective of how we are likely to set up in the attacking third. Coutinho won't be part of the middle 3 often, if at all, especially if we sign another midfielder. Traore will be last in the pecking order for the attacking spots and we all know he blows hot or cold and nothing in between. Also, Digne didn't have the best game today which doesn't help us offensively. Might not have helped having Bailey in front as he's more suited in this set up to being on the right and Digne occupying the wide space. Bailey has been generally decent so far in preseason.

Second half, players in more natural positions and two strikers (which tended to produce better resuts last season) and we looked at lot more effective creating chances.

[hippo]

18 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

Plenty that I've already mentioned. For a start, player for player we'll be better than last season. Expect Kamara to be huge for us. Carlos also. We should have even better control of games because of those two. Improved depth in squad as well, less likely to see late collapses if we've got more suitable bench options. We've still got over a month of the window left and I don't expect we're done signing yet.

Beyond that, key retained players have got six months in Gerrard's system to build on, a full preseason to work with now, last season's signings being more settled (Bailey already looking more lively in preseason), Ramsey progression and then hopefully a bit more luck with injuries, in game decisions, etc. because definitely didn't feel we had the rub of the green very often last season.

I really think you are getting carried away with a load of words.

I m sure someone posted on here - we didn't have that many late collapses last season.

AFAIK - Pre Season started Early July - so the players have an extra 4 or 5 weeks getting to grips with Gerrards system - not six months.

Luck with Injuries ? - You mean bailey and Traroe stay fit ? (more of a problem would be fitting those players into a system where full backs provide width)

Don't get me wrong Im not expecting us to flop next season - 10TH would be reasonable IMO.

But Im not expecting a massive uptick in results .

[nick76]

20 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

7th best scorers in the league under Gerrard feels like enough to be in with a shot of 7th, if we just maintain what we did last season. That's before we get to the improvements we've already made this summer.

Lost the 4th most league games last season at 19 games so we’ll end up 17th next season.  See, individual spouting off facts that support an argument doesn’t give the picture of what is happening.  How about the final 11 games we got 9 points, so based on that we’ll get 31 points next season over 38 games.

See facts in isolation can say anything.  I don’t believe we’ll be relegated, I don’t believe we’ll be 7th.  I worry about how we lack cohesion, how the attacking side of game is poor despite the talent we have.

I don’t see what you have been saying and you don’t see my view and others side based on the above comments.  I think we’ll leave it there as we don’t have any common ground.