Thug Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 7 minutes ago, colhint said: I would guess that a l large amount of that good a long with medical aid and fuel goes straight to Hammas Yh. And they fill their home made rockets with food to fire at Israelis chilling on the beach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icouldtelltheworld Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 5 hours ago, magnkarl said: The Western left is lapping up one narrative and the right the other. I'm still waiting for you to point out where the Iranian constitution 'literally' calls for the eradication of the Jewish people. I'm sorry if this sounds hurtful - as I appreciate that you have more skin in this game than most on here - but such is the horror and complexity of this situation that all any of us are trying to do is to interpret things as best we can. Human nature is such that we sometimes try to fit our explanations to wider narratives that are congruent with our overall worldview. That is as true for you as it is anyone else on here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 53 minutes ago, colhint said: I would guess that a l large amount of that good a long with medical aid and fuel goes straight to Hammas Yeah, of course it does. But that’s part of the reason why the blockade is dumb - they’re letting in 100 lorries a day, which is presumably enough to sustain Hamas, but not enough to feed the civilian population who have to make do on what doesn’t get stolen. Also, I really don’t think trying to starve Hamas to death was ever going to be a viable strategy. Israel have plenty of other ways to kill militants so how well-fed they are shouldn’t really be a concern. I can’t see how letting in enough food for everyone would make things any harder for the IDF (beyond them needing to search more trucks each day). I think a lot of the realities of fighting a war against Hamas are harder than many posters here make out, but even to me many things Israel is doing are not justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 2 VT Supporter Share Posted February 2 You don't need to flatten Gaza to fight Hamas. You don't need this. It's a choice and it ties in very nicely to very obvious desires to make Palestine disappear. **** Israel. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 What concerns me the most is that anybody can look at the situation, and say I'm alright jack, I'm comfortable, and defer any moral judgement for the fact that it is not happening to them or anybody they know. Our country is pivoting at the moment, it may take a while, but it has got to this position so slowly. Every soul lost to war, every person who has a family destroyed by war, including enough orphans to half fill Villa park, is a tragedy on a scale none of us can comprehend and there simply is no rationalising it away. We cannot ignore this annihilation of a people, even if we bash keyboards to say so and nothing else - I've got a couple of under tens, and you can guarantee that I'm letting them know what Israel are doing. This is generational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) 12 hours ago, icouldtelltheworld said: I'm still waiting for you to point out where the Iranian constitution 'literally' calls for the eradication of the Jewish people. I'm sorry if this sounds hurtful - as I appreciate that you have more skin in this game than most on here - but such is the horror and complexity of this situation that all any of us are trying to do is to interpret things as best we can. Human nature is such that we sometimes try to fit our explanations to wider narratives that are congruent with our overall worldview. That is as true for you as it is anyone else on here Article 14 of the Iranian constitution, the article the government uses to wipe out minorities; Article 14 (Non-Muslims) "The government ... and all Muslims are duty-bound to treat non-Muslims" with "Islamic justice", provided those non-Muslims "refrain from engaging in conspiracy or activity against Islam and the Islamic Republic of Iran." Interpret that the way you will, but it is what the government uses to ruthlessly purge Jews, Kurds, Zoroastrians etc. Edited February 3 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, magnkarl said: Article 14 of the Iranian constitution, the article the government uses to wipe out minorities; Article 14 (Non-Muslims) "The government ... and all Muslims are duty-bound to treat non-Muslims" with "Islamic justice", provided those non-Muslims "refrain from engaging in conspiracy or activity against Islam and the Islamic Republic of Iran." Interpret that the way you will, but it is what the government uses to ruthlessly purge Jews, Kurds, Zoroastrians etc. That’s a conveniently edited version heres article 14 in full. Article 13 talks about how those minorities are free to exercise their religious beliefs. Edited February 3 by Thug 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 3 Moderator Share Posted February 3 Looks like the world became a little more dangerous overnight. Israel versus everyone with the US in Israels corner looks like it might be on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) 5 hours ago, Thug said: That’s a conveniently edited version heres article 14 in full. Article 13 talks about how those minorities are free to exercise their religious beliefs. So instead of judging Iran on its actions and using this law as justification for brutal repression of non-Muslim minorities, you want to get into semantics? The last sentence tells you all you need to know. How many Jews are left in Iran compared to before the coup, how are the Kurds, the Coptic Christians? It’s a bit like trying to say that Adolf meant something else without looking at his actions, but purely analysing his speeches for semantics. Edited February 3 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icouldtelltheworld Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 11 hours ago, magnkarl said: Article 14 of the Iranian constitution, the article the government uses to wipe out minorities; Article 14 (Non-Muslims) "The government ... and all Muslims are duty-bound to treat non-Muslims" with "Islamic justice", provided those non-Muslims "refrain from engaging in conspiracy or activity against Islam and the Islamic Republic of Iran." Interpret that the way you will, but it is what the government uses to ruthlessly purge Jews, Kurds, Zoroastrians etc. Have to agree to disagree on this one mate, that doesn't constitute calling for the eradication of the Jewish people for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icouldtelltheworld Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 22 minutes ago, magnkarl said: The point was that their constitution says that if any minority is considered conspiratory (read everyone not Shia) they pretty much automatically lose their ‘rights’ Can't help but notice the parallels here with the Israeli state's approach to the Palestinians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Just now, icouldtelltheworld said: Have to agree to disagree on this one mate, that doesn't constitute calling for the eradication of the Jewish people for me Iran all but completed that task within Iran and most countries in their sphere years ago anyway, so it’s potato potato. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icouldtelltheworld Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 minute ago, magnkarl said: Iran all but completed that task within Iran and most countries in their sphere years ago anyway, so it’s potato potato. No, it's strawman strawman. You have stated in here that the Iranian constitution 'literally' calls for the eradication of the Jewish people. It doesn't, as per your own evidence 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) 7 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said: Can't help but notice the parallels here with the Israeli state's approach to the Palestinians I don’t disagree at all, but there’s still over two million Arabs living in Israel. Last I checked Iran’s once 100.000 or so Jews are down to a few thousand who are ever increasingly hard to get a hold of. That’s not to say that Israel won’t do what Iran have done, but I just don’t see it as long as Israel’s allies have even an ounce of conscience. Edited February 3 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) 15 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said: No, it's strawman strawman. You have stated in here that the Iranian constitution 'literally' calls for the eradication of the Jewish people. It doesn't, as per your own evidence The correct wording would be ‘The Iranian constitution expressly calls for the removal of rights for all minorities who are considered conspiratory, and for them to face ‘Islamic justice’’, my bad. The real life use of it, on the other hand, shows that the constitution is a vehicle to purge all minorities from Iran, of which the Kurds, Balochi and Zoroastrians are currently carrying the heaviest toll and the 100.000 or so Jews that once lived in Iran are either dead or moved away. Edited February 3 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Iran are bad shit, as bad as it gets. But they are demonstrating stability, hell they are making the monies on their drones. I'd say they are a more effective government than Israel. The western world, and I hesitate to include Israel in that, cannot compete with the likes of Iran when its leaders are so compromised, boy do we need someone to stand up and lead but Israel, the US and UK are failing the world big time, there are no ideas, there is no morality, just more of the same. God knows how Israel and Gaza gets solved, but there are no uncompromised leaders to solve it, **** aipac, **** 40% of our next government being Israel funded, nothing changes. I'm so depressed by the state of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 15 hours ago, magnkarl said: So instead of judging Iran on its actions and using this law as justification for brutal repression of non-Muslim minorities, you want to get into semantics? The last sentence tells you all you need to know. How many Jews are left in Iran compared to before the coup, how are the Kurds, the Coptic Christians? It’s a bit like trying to say that Adolf meant something else without looking at his actions, but purely analysing his speeches for semantics. I have to type my post out again because, well, I have to. But what you are doing is using a straw man fallacy. Your initial standpoint was that it is ‘literally’ in Iran’s constitution to wipeout all Jews. You then posted a conveniently truncated version of article 14 to ‘prove’ your point. Even this truncated version did not prove your claim in the slightest. When a full version of the article 14 is posted, proving you wrong, you then argue a completely different point - this is where the straw man comes in. You changed the argument from the literal existence within the Iranian constitution to wipe out all Jews, to the fact that the Iranian regime is guilty of this. These are two completely separate claims here. 1. That the Iranian constitution ‘literally’ calls for the ethnic cleansing of Jews 2. The Iranian government is/was carrying out the ethnic cleansing of Jews. Point 1 has been disproven. Point 2 was not disputed. You are using point 2, to argue point 1. I.e your classic ‘straw man’ This is NOT semantics. This is a debating tactic that is used frequently, and has been employed persistently by the western media during the current conflict for propaganda purposes. I would appreciate it if you would withdraw your false claim that the ethnic cleansing of Jewish people was ‘literally’ in the Iranian constitution - this is a lie, and you are spreading disinformation. Posting truncated versions of articles to suit your agenda and support your narratives is not ethically sound. I guess you got it from Wikipedia. I suggest in future, to prevent misunderstandings, you go directly to the source you are quoting. If you want to make your claim that the Iranian government are/were/will carry out the ethnic cleansing of Jews under the veil of article 14 by making false charges, be my guest. You won’t have an argument from me. It’s a disgusting practice when Iran do it, and it’s a disgusting practice when Israel do it, and it’s a disgusting practice when the US use their anti-terrorism laws to hold people without charge for decades in Guantanamo bay. Misusing the constitution is NOT the same as your claim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 10 hours ago, Jareth said: Iran are bad shit, as bad as it gets. But they are demonstrating stability, hell they are making the monies on their drones. I'd say they are a more effective government than Israel. The western world, and I hesitate to include Israel in that, cannot compete with the likes of Iran when its leaders are so compromised, boy do we need someone to stand up and lead but Israel, the US and UK are failing the world big time, there are no ideas, there is no morality, just more of the same. God knows how Israel and Gaza gets solved, but there are no uncompromised leaders to solve it, **** aipac, **** 40% of our next government being Israel funded, nothing changes. I'm so depressed by the state of it. Iran's government is only "effective" in the same way that Russia or North Korea is - they've completely sacrificed their economic development in order to be a regional military power. The government has clung onto power but the situation there is anything but stable; there's been mass uprisings against the government twice in the last five years which have both resulted in hundreds of people being killed by security services and dozens of people being publicly executed. Sure, they're making a little bit of money on their drones but their GDP is $350bn whereas Israel's GDP is $500bn - and Iran has almost ten times the population, plus major oil reserves. Even the UK alone has a GDP of ten times that of Iran. Iran should be much wealthier than it actually is. The problem is, how do you expect the West to deal with a regime that is behaving that way? We've already been doing sanctions, but they've got limited effect if a government is more interested in troublemaking than economic development. So when you complain about a lack of leadership, what do you do you actually expect our leaders to do about Iran - invade them? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 4 VT Supporter Share Posted February 4 Lovely bunch of lads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 7 hours ago, Chindie said: Lovely bunch of lads. Psychopaths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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