Racism

[Vive_La_Villa]

18 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

also I posted this in another thread earlier so sorry for the repetition but seems apt and is in my mind

 

Pretty interesting but with all due respect I doubt very much that the makeup of DNA would affect someone's views on race. 

Just look at the map posted in the maps thread and how many people indentify their race as American! 

[Vive_La_Villa]

4 minutes ago, osmark86 said:

My wife is black and has more than two years of experience in her work field and great references from the customers she has worked with, routinely covering up for her colleagues and putting in overtime. Today a junior male white, just-outta-school graduate that she coaches got a pay raise landing him a better salary than her. Her boss routinely tries to undermine her with snide coments and she constantly has to prove herself with no return on her efforts. I suppose systemic racism is a myth though...

She should be reporting it to HR then or moving to another company. Regardless of her colour no boss should be treating her that way. 

[VILLAMARV]

1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Maybe. 

as long as you know i'm being a bit playful there with that maybe then

Quote

Many times when I was a kid. It's not the racism that bothers me when I think back about it. It's more the reasons it bothered me. 

So yes that does affect my views. 

wasn't being ansty just genuinely wondered if something had happened.

[AvfcRigo82]

12 minutes ago, osmark86 said:

My wife is black and has more than two years of experience in her work field and great references from the customers she has worked with, routinely covering up for her colleagues and putting in overtime. Today a junior male white, just-outta-school graduate that she coaches got a pay raise landing him a better salary than her. Her boss routinely tries to undermine her with snide coments and she constantly has to prove herself with no return on her efforts. I suppose systemic racism is a myth though...

My advice to your wife, find a better place with equality and diversity that will respect her and the hard work she puts in.

No one needs to put up with that crap - especially at work.

What you describe was one of the many reasons I chose to become self-employed many years ago.

[VILLAMARV]

5 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

What winds me up is how it's deemed only non white people can be victims of racism. In this day and age and in this country being a victim of racism is not just restricted to minority's. Having that attitude actually breeds racism in my opinion. 

You started off being wound up by something that doesn't exist.

2 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

It feels like everybody is so scared of saying the wrong thing and being labelled a racist that we are unable to really be ourselves anymore and try and learn about each others cultures or deal with diversity issues openly. Instead just avoid them.  

Maybe it's not PC that I have an issue with. It just sometimes feels like we've moved so far forward now that campaigns to eradicate things like racism toward non whites just makes people feel like a victim and gives racism the attention it does not deserve. 

Racism should be an issue that affects all people and not just non whites. It should be dealt with that way.

Sorry I'm finding it difficult to express where I'm coming from. 

What you feel is what you feel. Doesn't necessarily make it so. but the first two lines are just that - how you feel. the third line is you repeating the thing that doesn't exist.

2 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

You're talking about America and far bigger issues than the ones I'm alluding to.

Racism is racism.

2 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

It's not the last few 200 years though is it?

We've moved forward to such an extent that in my eyes if people in this country still feel that racism can only be towards non whites than we've still got a big racism problem. 

When it's accepted that racism effects everybody in this country then we can be deemed equal. Until then it's still the poor brown people are suffering from racism. Lets protect them. 

repeating the thing that doesn't exist there and then suggesting we need everyone to agree what most of us already know (in potential effect at least - it has the potential to effect everybody) before then you will accept what we already are.

The less said about the ending the better really but I have to ask if you're suggesting we hold off on sympathising from people who suffer racism based on the colour of their skin?

2 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Then what the hell are we discussing!

Quite.

[VILLAMARV]

1 hour ago, NurembergVillan said:

Interestingly on this thread, apart from a few, we don't know the ethnicity of a lot of the posters.  We don't know their backgrounds, or their life experiences.  It'd be easy to assume that we're all white and aged 20-70, but we can't know for sure based off usernames and avatars.

It fascinates me to see opinions presented as they are, but it's also hard to understand the rationale behind some opinions when we don't know what has contributed to them.

Ultimately what does it matter though NV.

I agree though.

[VILLAMARV]

1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Exactly. As an example it's easy to assume someone is a white brexiter when reading their view hence already painting a picture of them. 

I wonder if I wasn't white would my views on racism (and the response such as 'Can't tell if  this is satire') be seen the same way? 

Is it coz you is white?

No Vive, it really isn't.

[Vive_La_Villa]

In my opinion it does exist though.  I know many examples of discrimination towards white people simply because of their colour yet we never hear anything about it. 

Why are you so adamant it doesn't exist? 

My point about protecting brown people as an example is really difficult for me to explain.  People suffering from racism do not need to be seen as victims all the time. That was the 70s, 80s. Those days should have passed.  Race should not be a barrier in this country anymore so people need to stop thinking it is. Otherwise it always will be. 

I used the term brown people because somebody else used the same expression and I was replying to that person. That was the only reason. 

[VILLAMARV]

36 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Pretty interesting but with all due respect I doubt very much that the makeup of DNA would affect someone's views on race. 

Just look at the map posted in the maps thread and how many people indentify their race as American! 

Well it seemed to work on the guy who didn't like Germans and then found out he's a bit German and started laughing at the ridiculousness of his perception that he'd built belief structures off of. My favourite bit is "so I'm a Muslim Jew?"

That was what made me dig it out earlier after seeing that map.

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

Well it seemed to work on the guy who didn't like Germans and then found out he's a bit German and started laughing at the ridiculousness of his perception that he'd built belief structures off of. My favourite bit is "so I'm a Muslim Jew?"

That was what made me dig it out earlier after seeing that map.

They were all actors though!

Watch the believer if you haven't already. Interesting film about a Jewish Nazi. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

9 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

Is it coz you is white?

No Vive, it really isn't.

Who said I was white

But as you said in your reply to NV. It shouldn't matter. That is the point I'm trying to make. I'm just not doing a very good job of it. 

[VILLAMARV]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

In my opinion it does exist though.  I know many examples of discrimination towards white people simply because of their colour yet we never hear anything about it. 

Why are you so adamant it doesn't exist? 

No one is adamant (*stand and deliver*) it doesn't exist. As I've already stated on another page. We're all human therefore we all have the same fallibilities as all the other humans. That's exactly my point here. You're basing your argument on a concept that you've invented.

Quote

My point about protecting brown people as an example is really difficult for me to explain.  People suffering from racism do not need to be seen as victims all the time. That was the 70s, 80s. Those days should have passed.  Race should not be a barrier in this country anymore so people need to stop thinking it is. Otherwise it always will be. 

I used the term brown people because somebody else used the same expression and I was replying to that person. That was the only reason. 

Is that really what you mean to say? Which sufferers of racism should we treat as victims?

Thankfully the days of the 70's and 80's have passed. I cant remember seeing gangs of skin-heads marching through the streets gay-bashing and kicking 7 bells into any ethnic minority representative who might get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time for years and thank **** for that. Thinking something isn't a problem anymore isn't going to deal with the reality that it still is though.

Is what you're trying to get at the argument that goes along the lines of "Why isn't white lives matter a thing? aren't white lives just as important?"

or is it more a shout out against "The Racist Card" being played in ways it's not appropriate?

Or is it just that some Pakistani people you met held some racist views?

Genuine question. I'd love to know where you're coming from.

[penguin]

1 hour ago, osmark86 said:

My wife is black and has more than two years of experience in her work field and great references from the customers she has worked with, routinely covering up for her colleagues and putting in overtime. Today a junior male white, just-outta-school graduate that she coaches got a pay raise landing him a better salary than her. Her boss routinely tries to undermine her with snide coments and she constantly has to prove herself with no return on her efforts. I suppose systemic racism is a myth though...

Playing Devil’s advocate:

Perhaps the boss is sexist. Perhaps he has taken a dislke to your wife on a personal level or doesn’t find her as good at her job as suggested. Perhaps there is a personal connection to this lad and he’s getting an unfair leg up or that as he’s joined as a graduate it was agreed he was going to get a certain rise in due course like a grad scheme.

Maybe he is a racist and maybe I’m spending too much time on Twitter but I’m finding it slightly concerning the amount I’m seeing any kind of unfairness experienced by non-whites attributed straight away to racism.

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by penguin

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

No one is adamant (*stand and deliver*) it doesn't exist. As I've already stated on another page. We're all human therefore we all have the same fallibilities as all the other humans. That's exactly my point here. You're basing your argument on a concept that you've invented.

Is that really what you mean to say? Which sufferers of racism should we treat as victims?

Thankfully the days of the 70's and 80's have passed. I cant remember seeing gangs of skin-heads marching through the streets gay-bashing and kicking 7 bells into any ethnic minority representative who might get caught in the wrong place at the wrong time for years and thank **** for that. Thinking something isn't a problem anymore isn't going to deal with the reality that it still is though.

Is what you're trying to get at the argument that goes along the lines of "Why isn't white lives matter a thing? aren't white lives just as important?"

or is it more a shout out against "The Racist Card" being played in ways it's not appropriate?

Or is it just that some Pakistani people you met held some racist views?

Genuine question. I'd love to know where you're coming from.

I've met people of all races that hold racist views.  Not just Pakistanis although some of them I have met we'e definitely some of the most racist people I ever came across. 

Anyway I'm talking about here and now in the UK.  When we talk about racism automatically the majority of people would assume we are talking about racism towards a non 'native' English person. You think I have invented this concept? I disagree. 

I think this mindset is wrong. It's 2018. It's not White Britain anymore. People need to accept and embrace that. Then we need to try and tackle racism towards all people, including those that see themselves as White British. Not just racism towards those that are deemed as minorities. 

That is when we can move forward and slowly rid the hatred.  

We are going around in circles aren't we?

[VILLAMARV]

26 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

They were all actors though!

Watch the believer if you haven't already. Interesting film about a Jewish Nazi. 

It will not be hard to convince MrsVM to watch a Ryan Gosling film I'm sure. This better be like Lars and the Real Girl all over again.......

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

17 minutes ago, penguin said:

Playing Devil’s advocate:

Perhaps the boss is sexist. Perhaps he has taken a dislke to your wife on a personal level or doesn’t find her as good at her job as suggested. Perhaps there is a personal connection to this lad and he’s getting an unfair leg up or that as he’s joined as a graduate it was agreed he was going to get a certain rise in due course like a grad scheme.

Maybe he is a racist and maybe I’m spending too much time on Twitter but I’m finding it slightly concerning the amount I’m seeing any kind of unfairness experienced by non-whites attributed straight away to racism.

 

This! The boss could just be a wanka. All sorts of reasons. People need to stop feeling like a victim of racism to break away from racism. 

This guy may not be a nice guy but he may not have even had a racist thought in his life. Lets say he gets accused of racism and is disciplined. 

I can guarantee to you if he wasn't a racist before he will be after that. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

5 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

It will not be hard to convince MrsVM to watch a Ryan Gosling film I'm sure. This better be like Lars and the Real Girl all over again.......

 

This was Ryan Gosling before he was Ryan Gosling. Your missus won't believe it's him. 

[StefanAVFC]

Sorry Ruge not sure how you got there. 

Unless I'm reading wrong there are some strange points being made including "to make racism go away we need to accept that white people endure racism too"

Sure but in the UK the majority is against non-whites. Sorry. Then after that it's white on non-british white. 

I dunno, it all comes across as an attempt to victimise white people because equality is a thing and it feels like oppression. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

7 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Sorry Ruge not sure how you got there. 

Unless I'm reading wrong there are some strange points being made including "to make racism go away we need to accept that white people endure racism too"

Sure but in the UK the majority is against non-whites. Sorry. Then after that it's white on non-british white. 

I dunno, it all comes across as an attempt to victimise white people because equality is a thing and it feels like oppression. 

When you put it like that it doesn't seem to make sense. Only in my head.

Minorities suffered with racism in this country pretty much in silence for years. They don't have to do that anymore and that is a great thing. 

We just need to make sure that we are not ignoring those that could now be suffering in silence. As they will just be the racists of the future. It's a vicious cycle. 

 

[VILLAMARV]

9 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I've met people of all races that hold racist views.  Not just Pakistanis although some of them I have met we'e definitely some of the most racist people I ever came across. 

Anyway I'm talking about here and now in the UK.  When we talk about racism automatically the majority of people would assume we are talking about racism towards a non 'native' English person. You think I have invented this concept? I disagree. 

I think this mindset is wrong. It's 2018. It's not White Britain anymore. People need to accept and embrace that. Then we need to try and tackle racism towards all people, including those that see themselves as White British. Not just racism towards those that are deemed as minorities. 

That is when we can move forward and slowly rid the hatred.  

We are going around in circles aren't we?

No, I think your assumption that you speak for the majority is flawed. Along with statements like 'Racism should effect everybody' when I think you mean 'no one should suffer racism'. The concept you based some earlier points on that I think you've invented is the one where you're not allowed to say this or that, your opening statement of " What winds me up is how it's deemed only non white people can be victims of racism " and that sort of stuff that just isn't true.