The Paradise Papers

[peterms]

48 minutes ago, darrenm said:

This. I don't hate the players, just the game.

But you can see why this winds people up:

If he paid the correct tax on his private plane then that's £3.3m that could be given to children's charities, so working people don't have to give as much. Then he has the audacity to give away a signed pair of used trainers as a charity auction.

 

No!

The "correct tax" is whatever miniscule amount your professional advisers can get away with on your behalf.

Because after all, taxdodging is no different to taking out an ISA, eh?

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

I'm pretty sure that if Lewis Hamilton paid an extra £3.3 million in tax to the government...none of it would have ended up at a children's charity!

I've often wondered if people could personally choose which areas of government spending their tax was spent on directly (e.g. I pay £X per year, I want 30% spent on healthcare, 30% on education etc..) what would the overall make-up of government spending look like? I'm also fairly sure that the overall tax take would go up. I'm not defending Lewis Hamilton but I can imagine the if you were in a position where you are 'supposed' to be paying £50k+ a day in tax it must be hard to see it just vanish into a governmental black hole.

 

[HanoiVillan]

Tax evaders bring out my inner Robespierre to be honest. 

I certainly don't see why someone who has taken up residency in Monaco or Andorra for tax purposes shouldn't be stripped of their British citizenship, at a bare minimum. 

[Risso]

58 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Tax evaders bring out my inner Robespierre to be honest. 

I certainly don't see why someone who has taken up residency in Monaco or Andorra for tax purposes shouldn't be stripped of their British citizenship, at a bare minimum. 

So people shouldn't be able to move abroad?  He isn't living or working here, so why should he pay tax here?

[Rodders]

they can live where-ever they like, but if you make the kind of money that jettisons you into the elite,  it seems at the minimum hypocritical to say he's proud to be british when he's more than happy to claim membership of a group whilst defrauding that group of contributions for public services by moving his residence to a tax haven. "Oh I love Britain, and I want all the popular acclaim - I just don't want to contribute to that country." I do find it to be one of the more unforgivable actions of a human being, in a non-directly violent context, and ought to be far worthier of the kind of contempt on a scale akin to that shown to paedos etc. But then sports fans are hypocritical dicks when it comes to tribal bollocks anyway." He's our rocket polisher" etc.

 

Although there was an article today saying that the threat of rich people moving leaving in response to taxes is generally only an option taken up by a small number of the dirty rich - so lewis is a member of a particularly arseholian sort of club ( https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/nov/20/if-you-tax-the-rich-they-wont-leave-us-data-contradicts-millionaires-threats )

The problem needs global co-ordination however, which is sadly never going to change.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Rodders
tidying

[HanoiVillan]

2 hours ago, Risso said:

So people shouldn't be able to move abroad?  He isn't living or working here, so why should he pay tax here?

He isn't living here, specifically for the purpose of evading tax. 

I'm aware that what I want isn't practical and can't be implemented, but I can despise these individuals as much as I want. 

[Risso]

14 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

He isn't living here, specifically for the purpose of evading tax. 

I'm aware that what I want isn't practical and can't be implemented, but I can despise these individuals as much as I want. 

You know that for a fact do you?  Look at the GP calendar, and then look at how much time he actually spends in the UK.  This year racing started in Australia in March, and finished 9 months later in Brazil, during which time there was one GP in the UK.  If the Grand Prix circuit was largely based in the UK, and he just positioned himself in Monaco, then you'd have a point, but the reality is that he'd effectively be living away from the UK for at least 10 months of the year.  It makes no sense for him to be based in the UK, so why should he pay tax here based on some on some bizarre and tenuous notion of 'duty' or because he's a British citizen.  If you got a job in the USA for example, would you volunteer to pay tax back here?  The point is that he's largely of no fixed abode for most of the year, so why would you base yourself in a country where they take half of your money off you?  I certainly wouldn't in his shoes.

edit: and it's avoidance, not evasion.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Risso

[snowychap]

24 minutes ago, Risso said:

If you got a job in the USA

He hasn't 'got a job in the USA'. If he had a job in the USA then I'd expect him to pay tax in the USA.

Yes, you're right that living in the UK is no more convenient than living in Monaco for an F1 driver but, equally, it would be no more inconvenient.

Mark Webber seemed to be able to cope with living and making his home in this country whilst fulfilling his work duties in F1.

[HanoiVillan]

I suspect he does, in fact, go home between races, but whether he does or doesn't basically the only reason to live in Monaco is to avoid tax (IMO). I don't find that a noble or impressive outlook, and I sure as shit don't want to hear crocodile tears about poor children, and that's all there is to it. 

[Risso]

57 minutes ago, snowychap said:

He hasn't 'got a job in the USA'. If he had a job in the USA then I'd expect him to pay tax in the USA.

Yes, you're right that living in the UK is no more convenient than living in Monaco for an F1 driver but, equally, it would be no more inconvenient.

Mark Webber seemed to be able to cope with living and making his home in this country whilst fulfilling his work duties in F1.

He hasn't got a job in the UK, either, which is the whole point.  If he was doing something that took place in the UK, and required him to live here, like being a Premier League footballer, then yes he should pay UK tax.  But he doesn't, so why should he pay tax here?  If tax is the cost of living in a particular country, why should you contribute if you don't live there?  If he'd chosen to live in say, Portugal for whatever reason, he still wouldn't be paying any UK tax, so would the fact that he was paying Portuguese income tax make you happier?

[Xela]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

Mark Webber seemed to be able to cope with living and making his home in this country whilst fulfilling his work duties in F1.

One of the few. Most are based in Monaco or other low tax countries. 

Its not noble but if I was an F1 driver, I'd do exactly the same. Why would I base myself somewhere where I lost 50% of my income? 

Just playing devils advocate!  

[snowychap]

18 minutes ago, Risso said:

He hasn't got a job in the UK, either, which is the whole point.  If he was doing something that took place in the UK, and required him to live here, like being a Premier League footballer, then yes he should pay UK tax.  But he doesn't, so why should he pay tax here?  If tax is the cost of living in a particular country, why should you contribute if you don't live there?  If he'd chosen to live in say, Portugal for whatever reason, he still wouldn't be paying any UK tax, so would the fact that he was paying Portuguese income tax make you happier?

If you're saying that the argument ' If you got a job in the USA ...' was irrelevant then I'd agree with you. I wasn't the person who made that argument, though.

[snowychap]

21 minutes ago, Xela said:

One of the few. Most are based in Monaco or other low tax countries. 

I wasn't using Webber as an example of doing the right or the wrong thing on tax matters just as a retort to the 'it makes no sense to be based in the UK' argument.

Quote

Its not noble but if I was an F1 driver, I'd do exactly the same. Why would I base myself somewhere where I lost 50% of my income? 

Just playing devils advocate!  

Why would you? Because you're not a word removed.

Edited November 20, 2017 by snowychap

[Risso]

5 minutes ago, snowychap said:

If you're saying that the argument ' If you got a job in the USA ...' was irrelevant then I'd agree with you. I wasn't the person who made that argument, though.

It's not at all irrelevant, I just think the point has just sailed completely over your head.  

[snowychap]

4 minutes ago, Risso said:

It's not at all irrelevant, I just think the point has just sailed completely over your head.  

Of course it's irrelevant. You've just agreed that in your previous post.

Edit: You ought to carefully consider the lack of clarity with which you put forward your points before you make the mistaken claim that an argument of yours goes over anyone's head.

Edited November 20, 2017 by snowychap

[Xela]

3 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Why would you? Because you're not a word removed.

Depends who you ask 

[Risso]

9 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Of course it's irrelevant. You've just agreed that in your previous post.

Edit: You ought to carefully consider the lack of clarity with which you put forward your points before you make the mistaken claim that an argument of yours goes over anyone's head.

I've checked my post and clearly did no such thing.  I think I was right to assume that in this instance you have no understanding of the subject matter past what you've read in somewhere like The Independent or HuffPost.

[snowychap]

13 minutes ago, Risso said:

I've checked my post and clearly did no such thing.  I think I was right to assume that in this instance you have no understanding of the subject matter past what you've read in somewhere like The Independent or HuffPost.

You did but if you're going to fall back on the 'I'm an expert on tax avoidance' card to excuse your inability to put a coherent argument together or understand when you've failed to do so then I'm afraid I'll have to ignore wherever you go next.

[Genie]

1 hour ago, Xela said:

One of the few. Most are based in Monaco or other low tax countries. 

Its not noble but if I was an F1 driver, I'd do exactly the same. Why would I base myself somewhere where I lost 50% of my income? 

Just playing devils advocate!  

But would you then go on UK TV asking people to give what they can afford for the poor kids?

I can understand what he did/does, but I do think he and people like him have a bit of a duty to put some money back into the country that educated him, treated him when he was ill etc. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Genie

[Risso]

3 minutes ago, snowychap said:

You did but if you're going to fall back on the 'I'm an expert on tax avoidance' card to excuse your inability to put a coherent argument together or understand when you've failed to do so then I'm afraid I'll have to ignore wherever you go next.

You'll have to explain how a point about being resident in a country and paying tax there was irrelevant in a discussion about somebody living in a country and paying tax there.