National ID cards - good idea?

[snowychap]

much effort students are willing to put in

and herein is the first flaw in your plan :-)

Yes, I noticed that as I wrote it but I didn't want to change it as that might have risked alienating a significant proportion of VT posters.

[TrentVilla]

Other than the cost implication I'm in favour.

[Gringo]

Other than the cost implication I'm in favour.

Questions over 'free' ID cards plan

A question mark hung over the Government's budget for ID cards after their own expert recommended that no-one should have to pay for a card.

A report commissioned by Gordon Brown from a former banking chief said the enrolment process and the cards themselves should be free of charge to win "hearts and minds".

Interesting choice of words, bringing the occupations of afghanistan and iraq to mind!!

The proposal by former chief executive of HBOS banking group Sir James Crosby raised the prospect of massive changes to the bill footed by the taxpayer.

However, Sir James' suggestion came just as Home Secretary Jacqui Smith announced she would make a "genuine reduction" of £1 billion in the project's total cost, mainly by allowing private firms to fingerprint people for the new database.

Wow, saving us 1bn. It's a bit like your wife coming back from the sales telling you that she's saved you 200 quid whilst omitting to tell you she's spent £400 of your hard earned.

But if they keep telling us the system is only going to cost £6bn, and they can save a whopping 16% just by outsourcing one part of it, then something doesn't quite add up. Why would the private sector be able to something as manual and time consuming as fingerprinting so much cheaper than the public sector. There's some smoke and mirrors going on here somewhere.

Sir James, who is now deputy chairman of the Financial Services Authority, also said the ID card scheme should be independent of government.

"To engage consumers' hearts and minds on the scale required, enrolment and any tokens should be provided free of charge," said Sir James' report.

The current Home Office plans will see a fee of £30 for a stand-alone card, and more than £100 for a combined ID card and passport.

So should the ID card scheme be independent of government because they do it so much better and have much more secure systems, or just so the blame for any cock ups can be outsourced with the problem?

[bickster]

Caught 30 secs of question time last night and I don't know who it was that said,

"George Orwell was meant to be a warning not a blueprint"

But that gave the chilling truth of wher we're heading with this imo

[Awol]

Caught 30 secs of question time last night and I don't know who it was that said,

"George Orwell was meant to be a warning not a blueprint"

But that gave the chilling truth of wher we're heading with this imo

David Davies mate and I agree completely. I'd say roll on the election but I suspect it will be cancelled because the public can't be trusted to vote for the current government...It's for our own good though.

Edit: He also said catagorically if the Tories get in then ID cards will be scrapped, period. They'll get my vote.

[tonyh29]

He also said catagorically if the Tories get in then ID cards will be scrapped, period.

Amen to that

[tonyh29]

Interesting ?

In SA we all have ID's - they are identity documents/ booklets we have to carry around. THIS IS A NIGHTMARE! The loss or theft of this little document makes your life impossible - you need it everywhere and in order to pick up anything or prove your age/ identity. Not even to mention the scary trend that we have here of identity theft! Where someone gets hold of the details on your ID and then conveniently appropriates your identity. You end up with the debt and problems, stress and frustration - all because of having to carry proof of ID. In theory it might seem like a good idea - but in practice this is a disaster.

[snowychap]

Caught 30 secs of question time last night and I don't know who it was that said,

"George Orwell was meant to be a warning not a blueprint"

But that gave the chilling truth of wher we're heading with this imo

I thought that was one of the best lines I've heard from anybody in yonks.

Where was this David Davis during the Tory leadership contest? If he'd relied upon that kind of wit rather than crapping on about his being brought up on a council estate then people may not have fallen asleep during some of his speeches.

[Awol]

Caught 30 secs of question time last night and I don't know who it was that said,

"George Orwell was meant to be a warning not a blueprint"

But that gave the chilling truth of wher we're heading with this imo

I thought that was one of the best lines I've heard from anybody in yonks.

Where was this David Davis during the Tory leadership contest? If he'd relied upon that kind of wit rather than crapping on about his being brought up on a council estate then people may not have fallen asleep during some of his speeches.

He is one of a handful of MP's I genuinely respect, grounded bloke, served the country and doesn't come off like a shrill schoolboy al a 'Dave' and Osbourne. I remember Jacqui 'uber clown' Smith mocking him during his leadership contest for serving in the TA . Classy girl that one.

[snowychap]

Caught 30 secs of question time last night and I don't know who it was that said,

"George Orwell was meant to be a warning not a blueprint"

But that gave the chilling truth of wher we're heading with this imo

I thought that was one of the best lines I've heard from anybody in yonks.

Where was this David Davis during the Tory leadership contest? If he'd relied upon that kind of wit rather than crapping on about his being brought up on a council estate then people may not have fallen asleep during some of his speeches.

He is one of a handful of MP's I genuinely respect, grounded bloke, served the country and doesn't come off like a shrill schoolboy al a 'Dave' and Osbourne. I remember Jacqui 'uber clown' Smith mocking him during his leadership contest for serving in the TA . Classy girl that one.

I wasn't having a go at his roots - just that this seemed to be the recurrent theme throughout all of his speeches during the leadership contest. I wish that this aspect of him (e.g. the man on Question Time last night - though not the bit where he was continually trying to speak over Dimbleby which was very poor form) had come out a little more during the leadership contest.

I will refrain from making any comments about Ms Smith as I think my opinions on that subject are aready well known. :winkold:

[tonyh29]

Of course this could never happen to a Nationwide scheme ..could it

The Ministry of Defence is at the centre of a new security row after it emerged an "extraordinary" 11,000 military ID cards were lost or stolen in the past two years.

The MoD takes the loss 'seriously'Opposition parties said the scale of the losses cast fresh doubt on the Government's plans for a national ID card scheme.

The MoD said it took the issue "very seriously" and steps were being taken to improve general security awareness.

According to figures released in a Commons written answer, some 4,433 ID cards disappeared in 2006 and a further 6,812 went missing last year.

[drat01]

Well considering that those ID cards are not of the same type (biometric) as the ones being suggested and that they can possibly be used by others, thanks Tony for coming up with a good reason why we should have them :-)

[Gringo]

A good reason perhaps why people in secure areas should have biometric id cards, just like many other organisations currently do. Not a reason to force everyone to carry one.

On another note...

How is this going to work?

James Hall, director of the Identity and Passport Service (IPS), told ZDNet.co.uk sister site silicon.com that the revised scheme is likely to cut £1bn off the scheme's £5.4bn price tag, that power-station workers are likely to join airport workers and Olympic security staff as the first UK citizens in line for the cards, and that the cards may be used to prove identity over the internet.

Are all laptops to be fitted with card swipes? Or are they just making stuff up now?

[blandy]

Well considering that those ID cards are not of the same type (biometric) as the ones being suggested and that they can possibly be used by others, thanks Tony for coming up with a good reason why we should have them :-)

Except it's not a good reason, not at all.

The Home Secretary was saying the other day how the (new, biometric) ID cards will be of benefit to people wanting to open bank accounts, or other finacial accounts.

She also said that in order to improve the security of the data held on the ID database, only a very limited number of people will have access to the data.

So presumably, unless she was lying, civilian banks staff, building society staff,etc etc will not have access to the biometric data.

So then a lost or stolen biometric ID card is no more or less secure in terms of preventing financial tomfoolery and shenanigans than a copy of a utility bill and and a driving license, passport or F1250 military ID card.

Obviously if all these bank clerks, tellers, call centre operators and so on do have access to the database, then the opportunity for misuse and fraud etc by the banks staff rather renders the thing full of holes.

The whole idea is total bonkers, impractical and is more about dogma than necessity or benefit to the country.

[drat01]

Sorry Pete don;t agree. Tony used the example of losing ID cards as some sort of reasoning for not having them. The main basis was then that they could be used by others? With biometric type recognition then the use of the card becomes invalidated.

The whole point of this is being able to match yourself up against the card surely?

[Awol]

Sorry Pete don;t agree. Tony used the example of losing ID cards as some sort of reasoning for not having them. The main basis was then that they could be used by others? With biometric type recognition then the use of the card becomes invalidated.

The whole point of this is being able to match yourself up against the card surely?

I think the whole point mate is that neither you - although it's not your job :winkold: - nor anyone in government have come up with a reason why we need them.

Start off with terrorism, er no that wont fly, ok what about immigration? er no, that won't work either.

So we're down to opening a bank account or getting a student loan, either of which can be done quite happily with existing forms of ID.

Biometric passports I can understand - not like but that's irrelevant. There has not been a single good reason proposed for these things being introduced, as Pete said above the government are just being dogmatic now and it shows.

[drat01]

......

Biometric passports I can understand - not like but that's irrelevant. There has not been a single good reason proposed for these things being introduced, as Pete said above the government are just being dogmatic now and it shows.

Ah you see that's exactly one point that people just cant sort out.

On one hand these are fine as is a whole load of other ID card type things, but on the other hand its all wrong and an infringement of our civil rights. Surely it's one or the other?

[Awol]

......

Biometric passports I can understand - not like but that's irrelevant. There has not been a single good reason proposed for these things being introduced, as Pete said above the government are just being dogmatic now and it shows.

Ah you see that's exactly one point that people just cant sort out.

On one hand these are fine as is a whole load of other ID card type things, but on the other hand its all wrong and an infringement of our civil rights. Surely it's one or the other?

It's not that simple is it. Using biometrics to verify that you are who you say you are at an airport is one thing, having to use them in everyday life within the secure borders of your own country is just wrong and a total infringment of your civil liberties, aside from access and data security issues. If you want to know why I think that it's all in this thread and I'm not typing it again!

Fact remains we are STILL to hear a SINGLE good reason for them so the only question that matters is WHY?

[drat01]

The interesting thing is using your argument that people are happy to have them for one reason which is basically proving who you say you are at the airport / train station / docks etc but not for other reasons.

Why should they be in place at passport control areas? what do they do there?

The secure border thing is also interesting. You know as well as I do it's not beyond the realms of possibility to enter this country outside of the usual routes. How do you then check on these people?

[Awol]

The interesting thing is using your argument that people are happy to have them for one reason which is basically proving who you say you are at the airport / train station / docks etc but not for other reasons.

Why should they be in place at passport control areas? what do they do there?

The secure border thing is also interesting. You know as well as I do it's not beyond the realms of possibility to enter this country outside of the usual routes. How do you then check on these people?

Are you trying to sink your own argument here?

Planes yes, because as you know the yanks are going to do it, so for international travel we wont have a choice.

Any luck with a reason yet?