National ID cards - good idea?

[drat01]

Not sinking my reason at all mate. OK so Joe Blogski arrives on the back of a lorry. Goes through Dover. Starts up a business in London using a false passport. Old Bill think something aint right here he doesn't look like a regular Joe Smith, how do they prove he aint? The passport he has says he is.

[tonyh29]

Not sinking my reason at all mate. OK so Joe Blogski arrives on the back of a lorry. Goes through Dover. Starts up a business in London using a false passport. Old Bill think something aint right here he doesn't look like a regular Joe Smith, how do they prove he aint? The passport he has says he is.

your sinking fast ... but glad to see that you believe our police force will only pick up on anyone who looks like a foreigneer for no other reason than he doesn't look "right "...

If you don't think that in getting his fake passport he can't get the other fake docs required to get his bio ID card at a later date I fear you are being a bit naive ... or are you saying that the bio stuff will be crossed referenced to a worldwide database ..and what if he comes from a country that don't keep up to Biometric information ... not to mention I thought this data was only going to be a accessable by a select few and yet now you are talking about a world wide database that the whole world will have access to .. how secure a database can it be ??

face it , it's not workable and no valid benefit or reason for these cards has been put forward ...

Ps , I thought The Govt. have already said it isn't compulsary to carry the card with you ..so old bill can ask him to produce an ID card and he can tell them to go poke it .... he's not breaking any law by doing so ....

[drat01]

See Tony your obsession with this Gvmt clouds your viewpoints - the question is still out there is the ID scheme a good idea. The fact that we have a labour party in charge, thank god, means that you would hate the scheme despite of any things it may bring.

So shame for you but I aint sinking at all you and a few other posts have just strengthened the case for ID cards.

What a shame you didn't understand the example used - who mentioned worldwide? Science fiction again? To obtain a biometric for UK - you know chappy claiming to be UK based etc - I will try and keep it simple - then you would have to provide UK based info which can then be cross checked against you - unless of course you are imagining that same chappy carries around a whole bunch of spare parts :-)

[tonyh29]

I will try and keep it simple - then you would have to provide UK based info which can then be cross checked against you

sadly it's yourself who you are confusing so maybe your not keeping it simple enough ?

If Jo Blogski as you call him comes to the UK on a fake passport the UK will have no record of him as he is not from the UK ..therefore when he goes along to get his UK biometric ID he is in effect Jo Blogski ... he has the ID that says he is ..and unless there is worldwide and inter agency cooperation then he will walk out with a nice shiney ID card proving he is Joe Blogski ....

It wouldn't matter who put ID cards in place , they are a bad idea ..and it would seem 60% of people on here agree

only got to look a t the original governemnt excuse for them and see how it's changed and chaged to see that even they don't know what they are for ...remember those far ago days when an ID card was going to stop terrorism , only of course now they are not for that they are for something else ..and you accuse Cameron of changing his mind :-)

your so sunk that you better do a decompression stop on your way up or you'll get the bends ............

[bickster]

Where do we go from here?

The words are coming out all weird

Where are you now when I need you?

[drat01]

Tony you obviously dont watch enough TV or know enough people who can get what you want :wink:, fake passports usually relate to a real person

So now we have established that how exactly do you prove that the man over there is or isn't Joe Smith and is in fact Joe Blogski?

Sunk? No sir floating way above you, so far I have just farted and you may well see the bubbles in a few minutes :-)

[snowychap]

The interesting thing is using your argument that people are happy to have them for one reason which is basically proving who you say you are at the airport / train station / docks etc but not for other reasons.

The only train station at which one should have to produce any ID should be one with a DIRECT train out of the country.

Inside this country, as a British subject, I WILL NEVER produce an ID card for merely existing and the moment someone compels me to do such, I will gladly become a criminal by refusing.

[drat01]

Snowychap - St Pancras is what I meant - I thank you. That high horse now looks a little silly

[Gringo]

Why are we persecuting Joe Blogski when he's helping develop the economy?

Any reasons yet for the entire population having to carry a card?

Inside this country, as a British subject, I WILL NEVER produce an ID card for merely existing and the moment someone compels me to do such, I will gladly become a criminal by refusing.

You won't have to produce the card for merely existing, only if you want to use a service, such as see a doctor (one of the reasons given for ID cards was to reduce nhs tourists), obtain benefit (another reason given is to reduce benefit fraud), use public transport (gordo has already announced security is going to be tightened up at 250 stations, shopping centres and sporting venues) - so we can probably add go shopping or watching the Villa to the list of precluded activities. There will also be an encouragement for other third parties to favour the ID card. Already employers are being threatened with massive fines if they are found to be employing an illegal and can't prove they've carried out the required identification checks. So we can probably add - getting a job to the list.

So as long as you don't want to work, claim dole, be sick, go shopping or to the gym or try to leave the country, then no one is going to force you onto the database - it's all of your own free will.

[drat01]

.........

So as long as you don't want to work, claim dole, be sick, go shopping or to the gym or try to leave the country, then no one is going to force you onto the database - it's all of your own free will.

Hmm interesting comments.

Using VT as some sort of barometer here, there are a lot of knee jerk comments about people claiming benefits when they are not entitled to them. Not entitled including people from abroad - trying very hard here not to say the I word.

Trying to leave (or enter) the country, Hmmmm again what do you do now? Again the I word springs to mind

Shopping, Hmmmm (lots of them) I am assuming you mean here the ability to receive credit card facilities etc. Now if a bank or any such like insists on this form of proof of showing who you are, what are your options? Go to another bank? Of course but what if they all insist on this? They are all private companies (except NR so maybe they wont :-) ), and can chose who there customers are and by whatever means. It's not discrimination or is it?

As for going to the Gym, nah can't see that happening to be honest people are far more happier putting the world to right behind the safety of a keyboard and a screen

[bickster]

We're all going to be living in one huge reality tv gameshow soon

[Gringo]

.........

So as long as you don't want to work, claim dole, be sick, go shopping or to the gym or try to leave the country, then no one is going to force you onto the database - it's all of your own free will.

Hmm interesting comments.

....

Not quite sure the point you are making, apart from the fact that some people already voluntarily on occassion offer up some information. Still haven't seen a reason or justification for ID cards.

[Awol]

So 17 pages and still missing a reason why we should have them.

I'm gonna ask again Mr D' - and not picking on you but - why?

[drat01]

.........

So as long as you don't want to work, claim dole, be sick, go shopping or to the gym or try to leave the country, then no one is going to force you onto the database - it's all of your own free will.

Hmm interesting comments.

....

Not quite sure the point you are making, apart from the fact that some people already voluntarily on occassion offer up some information. Still haven't seen a reason or justification for ID cards.

But you wont answer any of the points I made, again interesting

[drat01]

So 17 pages and still missing a reason why we should have them.

I'm gonna ask again Mr D' - and not picking on you but - why?

As Gringo wont answer any of the points, what's your take on those I raised?

The reason is ID and proof

[Awol]

So 17 pages and still missing a reason why we should have them.

I'm gonna ask again Mr D' - and not picking on you but - why?

As Gringo wont answer any of the points, what's your take on those I raised?

I'll try but you've made a lot of points, which ones?!

The reason is ID and proof

We have plenty of forms of ID already so I fundamentally do not accept that as a good reason, it's also not impossible to prove who you are using existing forms of ID.

I concede that air travel will probably necessitate biometric passports for security reasons and that's the way it has to be. It does nothing however to make a case for domestic ID cards imo.

[tonyh29]

The reason is ID and proof

this week it may be , but what was it they said originally ....

Interestingly I looked back through some old surveys we carried out back in 2004 and it turns out support for ID cards was at 60% ..... now it's around 20 %

so is it the ID cards people are opposed to ..or is it the governments lack of ability and a lack of faith from the general public that has caused the about turn ?

[drat01]

Tony - the title of this thread is good idea ? Again you want to bring in anti-Labour bias into the debate.

The whole thinking behind the idea of ID cards and how they would be used etc is the discussion, but you seem to just want to use it as a stick to attack the Labour party again. why not debate the issue based on a non party political stance

[drat01]

So 17 pages and still missing a reason why we should have them.

I'm gonna ask again Mr D' - and not picking on you but - why?

As Gringo wont answer any of the points, what's your take on those I raised?

I'll try but you've made a lot of points, which ones?!

The reason is ID and proof

We have plenty of forms of ID already so I fundamentally do not accept that as a good reason, it's also not impossible to prove who you are using existing forms of ID.

I concede that air travel will probably necessitate biometric passports for security reasons and that's the way it has to be. It does nothing however to make a case for domestic ID cards imo.

These points mate

Using VT as some sort of barometer here, there are a lot of knee jerk comments about people claiming benefits when they are not entitled to them. Not entitled including people from abroad - trying very hard here not to say the I word.

Trying to leave (or enter) the country, Hmmmm again what do you do now? Again the I word springs to mind

Shopping, Hmmmm (lots of them) I am assuming you mean here the ability to receive credit card facilities etc. Now if a bank or any such like insists on this form of proof of showing who you are, what are your options? Go to another bank? Of course but what if they all insist on this? They are all private companies (except NR so maybe they wont Smile ), and can chose who there customers are and by whatever means. It's not discrimination or is it?

As for going to the Gym, nah can't see that happening to be honest people are far more happier putting the world to right behind the safety of a keyboard and a screen

As a "military" man and used to the idea of ID cards in a way especially in the more secure sites, do they work?

[Awol]

As a "military" man and used to the idea of ID cards in a way especially in the more secure sites, do they work?

If I can take the last bit first mate, yes they do work in terms of restricting access to secure sites(and sometimes the rozzers will let you off for speeding if you flash one, allegedly ). I am not aware of an MOD 90 - mil' ID card - being cloned or forged but that's not to say it hasn't happened. The ones that have beem lost couldn't be used by anyone other than the card holder unless the bloke on the front gate was an utter mong. However all forces personnel agree to surrender a good chunk of their civil rights in order to serve so carrying an ID card isn't an issue. I don't think it's on to take the same line with the general population who have certainly not consented to giving up those rights.

On your benefits point an ID card could be used to verify who the claimant is but I don't think that is where the fraud is happening, it seems to be more about people claiming who aren't entitled to at all. Either way that wouldn't be solved by ID cards and immigrants who are illegally claiming benefits wouldn't have them anyway so it wouldn't work as a catch all solution imo.

Biometric passports I think we both agree on, unfortunate but probably unavoidable.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at with the banks, they seem to manage perfectly well now. Unless the government gives them the extra option of demanding "achtung papers!" - which they would no doubt take up - I don't see why it's relevant. Are you proposing they could be used to prevent credit card fraud? *a subject I know naff all about btw*

As for going to the gym I wouldn't know about that anymore

We seem to be starting from the premise that 'we' want ID cards and we will find uses for and reasons why we should have them, reverse engineering the issue. It just seems a little perverse to me and from an economic POV vast expense for no appreciable gain.