Last of Us Part 2

[Designer1]

33 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Only remasters.

Ratchet and Clank made the jump, they're easy to mix up.

Yep that's exactly what happened 

[villa4europe]

13 minutes ago, hogso said:

Huh. In short, they're story driven, action adventures, which tend to be a bit light and linear in the gameplay stakes. 

they're modern linear games, give the illusion of being open but in reality they're just linear in large arenas with exploration that isn't actually that worthwhile

apparently there are some parts of the new game that do expand on that, still linear but more ways to skin the cat

[villalad21]

Just my opinion , but I didn't enjoy the game.

Non likable characters. Disappointing events and a non satisfying ending.

Real shame. Game had so much potential.

Graphics and gameplay is superb, but the story just ruins it for me. I didn't feel engaged.

Edited June 22, 2020 by villalad21

[villa4europe]

I'm about 3 hours in and think it's brilliant, looks incredible, the environments and the buildings have so much detail and little touches, when this eventually comes out on the PS5 it will be mind blowing 

The story choices that they've been criticised for haven't bothered me that much personally, they get the benefit of the doubt because the game just feels great to be playing again 

Spoiler

Maybe Joel's death was a bit quick, not sure, no problem for me with how they did it, it was a good scene and I think they could have pushed it further in and developed abby a bit more first but that could have been filler, you knew it was coming when her and Owen started talking about looking for a man and based on everything they'd shown so far so it wasn't a shock, maybe not as powerful as it could have been but I've seen some people write the game off because of his death, that's nonsense

If they are justifying the sequel to a game that didn't need a sequel by going off in a new direction then that's a good start

The bit before his death where you're running from the infected in the snow was awesome, it's almost a shame you're out of the snow so quickly (that's if you are out of the snow for good...) 

 

[Delphouneso]

Finished it yesterday, thought it was brilliant.

Don't need to go into how good the game looks, but it does. Enjoyed the updated combat mechanics, melee kills feel really satisfying and well earned, the enemies feel less scripted, stealth seemed a bit more difficult to accomplish at points during the game but the addition of full prone and larger more detailed environments again makes the process more engaging and more rewarding, stealth killing an entire area without being spotted is immensely satisfying. Hate the dogs.

I had the same problem as I had in the first (and in many other games actually) which is largely my own fault for being a compulsive completionist in that I can't leave anything un-explored, and so rather than enjoying the splendid environment I ended up spending large portions of the game with the camera pointed at the floor/walls looking for items. I only include it as a slight criticism because I wouldn't do it if the game didn't reward me for doing it, however I will say (as far as I'm aware) they didn't hide items during key plot points. And actually whilst rooting around for collectables can sometimes be a distraction collecting and reading all the letters really added to my enjoyment of the game.

As for the story:

 

I honestly don't get the hate the game is getting. Although it seems most of it is directed at Abby being ugly and Joel dying. I can't help but feel most of the people criticising the story would've preferred 20 hours of prancing round Jackson re-hashing old times with Joel.

I think it does a brilliant job of making you feel uncomfortable, it makes you question the violence you commit, it makes you question your loyalty to certain characters and the decisions they make. I've seen a lot of criticisms about Abby being unlikeable and that the game tries to force you to like her, but I don't think it's that at all. I don't think you're supposed to like her, but that doesn't mean you can't empathise with her. That walk back into the aquarium knowing what was in there and that I/Ellie was responsible was brutal. And I think that's the whole point the game is trying to make, these aren't black and white good/bad one dimensional characters, and the decisions you make aren't clear cut right or wrong.

Parts of the story feel a bit forced, and yes they beat you over the head with certain themes, but overall I found it thoroughly enjoyable. I probably could've done without California, and I'm not convinced playing as Abby in the theatre was a great call, but I get why they made those decisions.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Delphouneso

[villa4europe]

Yeah I'm the same and I think maybe in an unintentional way it adds a realistic scavenger element to the game, I find myself hugging walls and desks etc trying to find draws that open

Seems to me like they've added more and better letters and notes to this game, they feel interesting and worthwhile, same with the likes of safe codes written on white boards 

Think ill do a play through and just see what I find then Google to see what I've missed and see if I feel like doing it again, I'm sure I'll miss a training manual 

Edited June 28, 2020 by villa4europe

[Delphouneso]

I've not tried it myself and I'm not sure I'd use it on my first play-through but I read you can turn on 'enhanced listen mode' in the accessibility options to 'scan' an area for items. Might be a useful half-way house between googling and maintaining immersion.

[villa4europe]

Dogs can **** right off

Don't remember the 1st game taking me out of my comfort zone too often and usually if it did its because I did something stupid to give up my stealth, this game is different, not necessarily harder but definitely has a couple of mechanisms to rush you 

The false open world element of Seattle is awesome, maybe a little too obvious in the 1st area but brilliantly subtle in the next couple of parts 

[villa4europe]

I've reached the stage of the game that Sony cut you off from revealing so my mid game review! 

Its brilliant... I'm really enjoying it, its a better game than 1 but with a weaker story told in a poorer fashion but the story is still good enough to see the game through, and it looks properly incredibly, the level of detail is astonishing, the level design is great, there's some shakey mechanics, I still don't think the gun play is very good and the environmental puzzles are hit and miss, the violence wasn't a problem for me, explained in the gameplay spoiler 

Gamplay spoiler

Spoiler

I think they set you up an absolute treat with the first area of Seattle, you have the map, you have your buddy, you go in to areas where you know you will combat, you clear it out, your mate says "all done" and then you explore... When you hit the next part of the city they take that away... As a result I feel like this game becomes incredibly realistic, I spend a lot of time in stealth mode scavenging, that's despite thr fact that there aren't many enemies and those that there are tend to be limited to certain areas and yet the game is proper intense, feels right on top of you all the time, that's what I think the "violent" and "grim" nature of the game is, the gore levels and brutality of it isn't that bad apart from some of the melee hits because if the quality of the game itself it shows gruesome detail, the big thing is its almost oppressing at times because of the claustrophobic and dark nature of the design... And it's all false! You can run round 75% of it without a care but I dont

You pair that with the false open world nature allowing you to have more or less free reign to roam and stumble in to danger and its just brilliant design, it doesn't use the tag to describe itself but I think it's the best survival horror game ever made, it's not a relaxing or even "fun" game

Story spoiler 

Spoiler

From what I've played so far i think it's good but not as good, the characters aren't as strong, I actually struggled to remember most of the WLF as I was killing them

Joel's death I don't see how anyone could say they didn't see coming, the way he died and the reason... Both ok

Playing as abby... Not sure if it's brave or arrogant yet, did say that to justify the sequel they had to go further than another Joel and Ellie escapade and they've done that 

Killing off Joel, playing as a lesbian female in the lead who has a Jewish girlfriend and Ill make some assumptions on abby... They knew what they doing! I bet that's got a fair few frothing but Ellie is a great character and can carry the game no problem, abby I don't know yet I'm intrigued by her though

Biggest problem with the story are the flashbacks, they've got tempo problems, as intense as I said the gameplay was stepping out from it to mess about in a dinosaur exhibition doesn't really work for me 

 

[Ginko]

I just got onto Chapter 4 last night, so I'm far from finishing the game, but so far it's incredible.

First off, I should clarify that I am a huge Naughty Dog fan. I'm also an ex-film student (and therefore particularly love my movies), an ex-journalist (yeah, yeah, I know), a current fiction editor for fantasy and sci-fi novels, and an amateur fiction writer/screenwriter. I also used to work in the games industry for a number of years and have been a gamer all my life. Sorry for the life story, I just think it's all relevant as to my opinion of the game.

I can understand why this isn't for everyone. I have a number of gamer friends who don't really like the gameplay in the original TLoU and the Uncharted games, and whilst I personally think they do an excellent job of merging cinematic storytelling with puzzles and incredible action set pieces, I get why some folks might feel differently.

When a story is written well, we get lost in it. We describe an amazing book as a real page-turner. Movie theatres are intentionally dark and immersive in order to focus our senses and attention – it's one of the main reasons filmmakers so often suggest we experience their films at the cinema rather than at home. Screenwriters call it 'the flow' – the state of mind we enter when we're enraptured whilst watching a film. It's their job to craft and pace the story in such a way that at no point does the audience drop out of the flow until the end credits.

Games sit in a rather unique place in terms of storytelling. Traditionally we're more used to watching films and reading books – if they're good then we're completely immersed, but we're still just along for the ride and have no real interactivity. We can't affect the story in any way, and whilst you could argue we can change the pace by either stopping reading or watching, that's really on us.

It's a lot more difficult to do this with story-based video games. For one, they're usually a hell of a lot longer than a film. It's also a completely different form of writing and as a writer, you have a lot less control over the pacing. Each player will play their own way and at their own speed, so how do you account for that? Obviously you try to write characters and story beats that are compelling so the player can't wait to find out what happens next and you hope they continue playing, or at least they take a breather when the character does during a lighter moment, but as a games designer you also want to balance immersion with giving the player an enjoyable interactive experience.

Naughty Dog gets criticised for having levels that are too linear, which may be fair, but the more choice you give to a player in a game, the less control the writers have over the story. It's all about balance. It then has to split into branching paths, which players can find jarring if it's not done well. With Uncharted 4, Naughty Dog introduced areas at beats in the story that were more open world in attempt to combine the more linear and controlled areas with parts that give the player more freedom, and they've done the same here in TLoU 2. It's a compromise, but it's done very well – the best any game has managed so far, in my opinion.

But as much as I love these games, it's not perfect. As I play I find myself searching every nook and cranny for collectibles in these less linear environments, and it's sometimes at odds with the pacing of the story and it takes me out of it. I want to carry on with the story, and even the NPCs occasionally try to nudge me onto the next story beat. I get that annoying 'Hint' pop up in the bottom-left corner of the screen like I don't know what to do next – I do! I just want to find everything YOU guys put in the level!

But that's all I can criticise it for at this point, and they obviously want to add replay value to their game, but I just don't think it works in story-focused games such as this. It's an attempt to appease players at both ends of the spectrum – those who only care about the story, and the completionists – and the varying degrees between, of which I am one, though I'd argue my slightly obsessive need to search everywhere is more about always having crafting supplies rather than the collectibles.

These sorts of experiences are never going to please everyone, so I understand why some people don't like it whilst also taking into account that I haven't finished it yet. The only thing I really can't fathom is how people can't be immersed in the story or the characters. It's a dark story, don't get me wrong, and I personally love a bit of grit, but I suppose people will say that they look to games for escapism from the state of the world, especially at the moment. There are plenty of other games to play if you feel that way, but we need games like this. Art is supposed to make you feel uncomfortable and challenge you, and TLoU2 is very much a work of art.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Ginko

[villa4europe]

The immersion bit is interesting when people talk about the violence and the darkness of the game etc

Its not the most violent game I've ever played, it's not the goriest or bloodiest or nastiest 

But it's a game that sucks you in and then shows you these things so where as GTA features a lot of killing, sniper elite has bullets shattering bones, mortal kombat has you literally knocking heads off none of that really resonates, so many violent video games shrugged off as meaning nothing but this game does mean something because its so immersive, its more impactful

And that is a compliment to the game not a criticism

[Delphouneso]

On my second play through on Survivor+ difficulty, which is described as being more difficult than normal Survivor difficulty, but I don't know whether that extra difficulty is enough to compensate for having already unlocked most of the talent trees? You'd assume so, but thus far it's not been as difficult as I was expecting, though I'm not too far in, and I think the fact I tend to avoid using guns where possible means I'm not really noticing the lack of ammo all that much.

I'm really enjoying how detailed this game is as well. I thought I'd been quite thorough the first time through but I'm noticing even more second time around. There's some interesting references in letters/dialogue to events later in the game, or characters who've yet to appear that I wouldn't have clocked first time through, stuff that carries some extra weight knowing what's to come, but also little (or big) environmental details that I either hadn't noticed or hadn't clicked that actually add a lot more depth to either the story or the characters involved.

Slight gameplay spoiler:

 

Discovered you can 'crack' safes by listening pretty closely, the correct numbers make a sort of 'clack' sound. It's not really a big thing it's not difficult to find the codes anyway and is actually quite a fun process ('call Staci for a good time') but a fun little quirk anyhow. Note using this method doesn't give you the correct sequence for the numbers, just lets you know which three you need.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Delphouneso
Spelling.

[villa4europe]

The letters and artifacts are massively improved from the 1st game, the safes are brilliant

Past the half way point spoiler 

Spoiler

The pacing issues are more noticeable with abby, I'm at the end of day 1 and the scars stuff started brilliantly and then just dropped off which doesn't feel right, I felt like they also made a mistake with visiting the aquarium during the storm on day 1 rather than the sunshine of ellies day 1, made the story feel more progressed than it actually was, I'm guessing it was just easier for development and made the ferry section a bit cooler (which it was, that's another great bit of level design) 

 

[Delphouneso]

On the subject of difficulty I'm not keen on the super passive AI on Survivor+, it's not that I need or want their help, but it makes them feel less a part of your experience when they keep getting stranded half way across the map, and I've actually missed a couple of bits of dialogue due to them being so far away from me.

[villa4europe]

finished it tonight, none spoiler - overall I loved it, split it in to thirds rather than halves - 

the first third is right up there with anything I've ever played, its properly superb, the story, the look of it, the gameplay, the stealth is maybe the most enjoyable I've played (don't enjoy the genre) the survival horror is as good as anything RE has ever done, like ginko said its so immersive its brilliant, its right on top of you, really grabbed me and wouldn't let go, its a stone cold 10/10, better than what I expected

second third I appreciate what they've done I just don't think they did it particularly well, it has pacing issues and starts to drag a little, the immersion drops off, its still enjoyable 

last third they didn't need, it does suffer from thereturnofthekingitis, it felt greedy

full spoilers

Spoiler

I liked the concept of playing as Abby, its the only way to tell the wolves vs scars story and that is a story that I thought did need telling, there are so many problems with it though and I don't agree that her being a weaker character though, she's fine, the problems were the cautiousness that grabbed me whilst playing as Ellie was gone, Abby's world seems less threatening for some reason, might simply have been me getting used to the game and not falling for the "danger" that worked so well at the start, there are some different threats though, the bridge is cool but not claustrophobic,  the rat king was shit and missed the mark, I think they also have the problem that they tried to balance it, make Abby's play through the same length as Ellies and it harms the game, haven really didn't work for me, the wolves vs scars story wasn't as strong as everything else in the game, its a story I wanted to know and explore but by the end of it I didn't really care, it felt over the top

then the California stuff just didn't work because it wasn't needed, the new faction was pointless, it seemed like them trying to shoe horn just one more bit of gruesomeness and whereas all the other violence in the game didn't bother me the slave camp felt like a massive misstep, maybe maybe they could have added this in later as "DLC" and fleshed it out a little better, added some exploration, I didn't stealth any of it, I just went on a killing spree because I couldn't be bothered any more

that said I've seen the criticisms and the fact that ellie stops mid killing her also doesn't bother me, I think what they were ultimately trying to get at is that her "revenge" is actually her manifesting her sadness and guilt over Joel in to anger at other people and whilst killing abby the penny drops as to why she's doing it, it just about worked for me

its a cracking game, the greatness of the start doesn't dampen the disappointing drop off enough to say anything other than I really enjoyed playing it

Edited July 14, 2020 by villa4europe

[Daweii]

I finished this a couple weeks ago and never got around to posting my impressions. 

My thoughts on Last of Us: Part 2 are conflicted because I didn't love it. I enjoyed aspects of the game, but not the game as a whole. 

First and foremost the game is visually spectacular. I won't go as far as saying it's the prettiest game I have ever played because I have played Control at 4K with raytracing on which is tough to beat, but it's definitely up there and that's insane for a game running on 7 year old hardware. This game is up there visually with video games running on hardware 20x the power and Naughty Dog deserve all the praise in the world for that. It's mindblowing what they achieved. I also enjoyed the gameplay a lot. I hated the gameplay in the first game, I thought it was some of the worst gameplay of the generation, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that Last of Us 2 is actually fun to play from a gameplay perspective. I loaded the game up after beating it just to play through some of the more action focused chapters again because it feels really good to play. 

Last of Us: Part 2 is the opposite of Part 1 for me;

Last of Us: Part 1 had a fantastic story that was let down by abysmal gameplay.

Last of Us: Part 2 has a really average story that is propped up massively by its improved gameplay.

I felt like the story in Last of Us: Part 2 didn't need to be told. I can't say much else about the story without spoilers so... Full spoilers ahead.

Spoiler

I found myself very disinterested at times in Ellie's story. I just struggled to get into it. 

I think Joels death was well done, I just feel the writing around the death hurt it a lot. It was great motivation for Ellie, but then Ellie right afterwards while heading into Seattle said to Dina that "Joel crossed a lot of people". I can't buy into a revenge tale when the main character literally insinuates that he probably deserved it. We are living in eye for an eye times in the Last of Us universe, if someone is pissed off enough to travel from Seattle to Jackson County which is an 800 mile journey then he likely deserved it. Maybe it's my fault for wanting to know the reasons before flying off the handle at Abby and killing all of her friends, but I struggled to get into Ellie's journey as a result. This meant that Ellie's story which takes up 12 hours was a pretty tedious 12 hours, I didn't enjoy the first third of the game at all.

That said my disdain for the Ellie portion of the campaign meant that I adored the Abby portion. I thought Abby was a wonderful character with a legit reason to want revenge. Ellie's reason was bullshit. Yes, Abby killed your fake dad that you've known for 4-5 years, but your fake dad literally killed Abby's real dad. There is a massive gulf in difference there and it helped me buy into Abby's story way more. Maybe that was intended, maybe I bought in to what the writers were putting down, but my 10 hours with Abby was super enjoyable. I also loved her dynamic with Lev. I thought Lev was a fantastic character. I really enjoyed the second third of the game, I bought in 100% with Abby's reasoning for playing golf with Joels head. 

The final third on the other hand? What a waste of time, I won't even talk about it. What I will say is Ellie gets a final cutscene and Abby doesn't? I know that her making it to Catalina Island is literally the main menu screen after beating the game, but that could have been a cutscene my dudes, just saying. 

Personally if I was writing Last of Us 2 I would have had Abby kill Ellie at the theatre. I feel continuing the game at that point was ridiculous. 

Abby let Ellie live after playing golf with Joels head and Ellie wanted revenge. Abby let Ellie live again after Ellie killed all her friends and yet Ellie wanted revenge again. If the writers were trying to make Ellie out to be completely irredeemable then they succeeded in the most ham-fisted and forced way possible. I thought the story outside of the Abby section was really average. 

Last of Us: Part 2 to me is a solid 8/10. I enjoyed a good 10 hours of my 24 hours spent playing it. Will I play it again? Probably not. I do load it up from time to time to mess around with the photo mode, but I don't think I'll play this game again unless they make a Part 3 (I hope they don't)

PS. I really like how divisive this game is. I think opinions of this game are all over the place based on a myriad of factors and that's amazing. I thought this game fell way short of being a masterpiece, but I love that someone else can play the exact same game and think it was the greatest game ever made. This game will be remembered for decades solely because of how divisive it was. There are so many "masterpieces" that are unanimously loved, but go largely forgotten because there is nothing left to say about them anymore. Last of Us: Part 2 has likely cemented itself as something no one will forget because I don't see the discussion online stopping any time soon. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Daweii

[villa4europe]

@Daweii

Spoiler

Agree with the simple revenge angle of Ellie not selling very well, that's why I'm not sure on the angle that the "revenge" is just a cover for her being broken by the actions of Joel and then him being killed before she ever got to reconcile with him 

Chasing Abby just gives her an excuse to take her pain out on other people, but killing Mel and then trying to kill Abby makes her realise that won't fix her

Maybe they don't sell that very well either but I think it's stronger than giving up on her revenge

The problem is they could have done all of that following killing Mel, the remorse taking over the anger 

 

[villa4europe]

And the outrage surrounding this game is absolute nonsense, a good chunk of it being thinly veiled homophobia 

[Daweii]

1 hour ago, villa4europe said:

And the outrage surrounding this game is absolute nonsense, a good chunk of it being thinly veiled homophobia 

I agree 100%. The amount of homophobia surrounding this game is absurd.

I also despise the death threats certain actors are getting for things their character did in a video game.

Gamers need to grow up.

[Delphouneso]

I think the pacing and structure of the story was definitely its biggest issue. Having it in two large blocks means the entire first portion of the game builds to a climax in the theatre and then just leaves you on a cliffhanger for ~10 hours while you go and play as Abby, then does the exact same thing again. I played the section from the Scar island to the farm in one go and it's one of the most intense gaming experiences I've had, and then it just plonks you in California. Initially I thought it was just going to be a quick epilogue but as soon as I realised it was a full section of the story I like you

@villa4europe was just a bit like 'I can't be bothered'. What I will say for California is I liked the bit in the boat with Ellie reading Abby's journal, the game needed more of that.

Getting towards mid-way through my second run and for anyone who's finished the game and doesn't fancy a full second play through I'd definitely recommend at least just playing through some of the individual encounters again on max difficulty, the gameplay and combat mechanics really are brilliant. The variety of enemies and tools you have at your disposal makes for so many different fun ways you can play through each encounter