ThunderPower_14 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 8 minutes ago, paul514 said: There is no way a new stand wouldn't pay for itself if we borrowed the money to do it....... I'm not sure that's true. There is a reason that major stadium works, basically everywhere over the last 20 years have involved significant public money or at the very least government loans at a very low rate. If building new stadiums and new stands paid for itself, there would be a lot more of them getting built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul514 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 3 hours ago, fruitvilla said: Can you go through your assumptions and math please? you can simply divide the current revenue by current attendance and then times it by the added capacity. The intangibles for us fans are what those numbers are for this year with the higher prices, and what will be brought in by for want of a better word 'corporate' as that is where the serious revenue increase comes from with these projects. If you can make it break even at the start then debt only gets cheaper as money devalues and prices go up, it is all very simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul514 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 3 hours ago, ThunderPower_14 said: I'm not sure that's true. There is a reason that major stadium works, basically everywhere over the last 20 years have involved significant public money or at the very least government loans at a very low rate. If building new stadiums and new stands paid for itself, there would be a lot more of them getting built. I can think of a few obvious ones that that have had that most don't to my knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderPower_14 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 1 hour ago, paul514 said: you can simply divide the current revenue by current attendance and then times it by the added capacity. That's very simplistic and doesn't take into account the opportunity cost of what else we could do with 100 million pounds to increase our revenue. Does this take into account what we'll be borrowing/repaying etc? If it's such a clear financial uplift, why did we cancel it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted January 25 VT Supporter Share Posted January 25 6 hours ago, ThunderPower_14 said: why do we think they've shelved these plans? I don't know. Would be nice if they told us the real reason with some respect and honesty instead of clearly bullshitting us and insulting our intelligence. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 14 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: Exactly this - and in addition to exactly this, what if at the same time this was happening, the cost of building the new stand went up enormously and the number of contractors available to do it dwindled? I think this has been pinched from both ends to the point where it was no longer viable. If that was the case then Heck should have made that very clear in his statement instead of the tripe he tried to feed us. Fans aren't stupid, they understand basic economics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follyfoot Posted January 25 VT Supporter Share Posted January 25 I think the reason they have stopped, the plans is due to us not being able, or them thinking we are not going to be able to fill the extra seats on a regular basis. They will not come out and say this directly because it will smash the 30,000 people waiting for season ticket myth which will have an adverse negative affect on advertising the club and moving it forward. That’s my take Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Townsend Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 2 minutes ago, Follyfoot said: I think the reason they have stopped, the plans is due to us not being able, or them thinking we are not going to be able to fill the extra seats on a regular basis. They will not come out and say this directly because it will smash the 30,000 people waiting for season ticket myth which will have an adverse negative affect on advertising the club and moving it forward. That’s my take During the rebuild we were going to have a reduced capacity of 36,000. This would have ensured there was a pent up demand for tickets during the build which probably would have ensured an initial guarantee of capacity attendances after completion. Then sustained success in the Emery era to carry it on. Will be gutting if we go through a genuine transformation on the pitch, sort of like what other clubs have experienced because of a genius manager, and yet we don't capitalise off the pitch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follyfoot Posted January 25 VT Supporter Share Posted January 25 Just now, Captain_Townsend said: During the rebuild we were going to have a reduced capacity of 36,000. This would have ensured there was a pent up demand for tickets during the build which probably would have ensured an initial guarantee of capacity attendances after completion. Then sustained success in the Emery era to carry it on. Will be gutting if we go through a genuine transformation on the pitch, sort of like what other clubs have experienced because of a genius manager, and yet we don't capitalise off the pitch. Gutting, but very very Villa mate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caravella82 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 15 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: Exactly this - and in addition to exactly this, what if at the same time this was happening, the cost of building the new stand went up enormously and the number of contractors available to do it dwindled? I think this has been pinched from both ends to the point where it was no longer viable. The great Frederick Rinder quote came into my head when I read this. Copied with some backstory for anyone unaware of it. He led the club with an iron will until his resignation in 1925, when he stepped down largely due to the criticism he received for the cost of the new Trinity Road Stand, which had spiralled to nearly £65,000 (at a time when the country's costliest player cost £5,000). However, Rinder's view was that nothing but the very best was good enough for Aston Villa with its stained glass, Italian mosaics and grand frontage. He said: "Finance is important, but we should never forget that we are not talking about a mere business. This is the Aston Villa football club, and it deserves nothing short of the best". 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Townsend Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Follyfoot said: Gutting, but very very Villa mate I know. That, far more than the crest issue, is why Heck gives me the Fox/Lerner vibe. The redevelopment was symbolically important. It was a statement of our resurgence and our commitment to the area. I get others aren't as fussed about this as I am, and I take the ridicule on the chin, but I see the cancellation as really symbolic in a very negative way. It also has raised questions about our commitment to the location, whatever they state publicly, and they have form for giving us B.S now. Edited January 25 by Captain_Townsend 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 8 minutes ago, Follyfoot said: I think the reason they have stopped, the plans is due to us not being able, or them thinking we are not going to be able to fill the extra seats on a regular basis. They will not come out and say this directly because it will smash the 30,000 people waiting for season ticket myth which will have an adverse negative affect on advertising the club and moving it forward. That’s my take To be honest I think it's all down to cost. If you do some basic numbers then it's simply not worth the giant investment to get 10K extra punters in the door. Instead it's vastly cheaper to try to increase revenue via other means. Plus the rise in cost of construction from when this project was envisaged to now is enormous. Example, if Everton were starting their new stadium now it would probably be around £2 billion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 Are there enough Villa fans willing to put their hands in the pockets to pay premium prices for GA+ is the crux question for me. The IMO OTT reaction by some online towards the Terrace View and The Lower Grounds lounges would’ve have been noticed and I have no doubts we can fill general admission seats without issue but the ROI per seat of those compared to the premium offerings doesn’t stack up. Like it or not we need to raise significantly the spend per fan and if the demand isn’t there for the premium offerings then you’re gunna have empty seats every game which isn’t a good look and will cause more animosity from a section of the fan base who cannot get tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Captain_Townsend said: I know. That, far more than the crest issue, is why Heck gives me the Fox/Lerner vibe. The redevelopment was symbolically important. It was a statement of our resurgence and our commitment to the area. I gey others aren't as fussed about this as I am but I see the cancellation as really symbolic in a very negative way. But if the costs have risen, the ROI is not as good as we thought it might have been 2 years ago and the FFP rules have tightened (let's not forget that Everton have just been docked 10 points and are at risk of a second deduction because, in part, the costs of their new stadium increased) - why threaten the actual existence of the club for a symbolic win? Won't be very symbolic if it means we get relegated or thrown out of the Champions League because we fail to comply with the financial regulations (however, fair / unfair they might be). Edited January 25 by allani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 4 minutes ago, thabucks said: we need to raise significantly the spend per fan and if the demand isn’t there for the premium offerings That's the difference between us and Spurs/Arsenal. They can sell premium seats by the barrel load but the demand for Villa tickets is from joe punter who wants a £30 ticket, a pie and a pint. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 6 minutes ago, thabucks said: Are there enough Villa fans willing to put their hands in the pockets to pay premium prices for GA+ is the crux question for me. The IMO OTT reaction by some online towards the Terrace View and The Lower Grounds lounges would’ve have been noticed and I have no doubts we can fill general admission seats without issue but the ROI per seat of those compared to the premium offerings doesn’t stack up. Like it or not we need to raise significantly the spend per fan and if the demand isn’t there for the premium offerings then you’re gunna have empty seats every game which isn’t a good look and will cause more animosity from a section of the fan base who cannot get tickets. That doesn't make sense. How about having 10,000 more seats as we already know we can sell those out 3x over with additional season tickets. The general fan doesn't want all the crap of Terrace View and Lower Grounds, we want to watch a live football match. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follyfoot Posted January 25 VT Supporter Share Posted January 25 (edited) 2 minutes ago, villa89 said: That's the difference between us and Spurs/Arsenal. They can sell premium seats by the barrel load but the demand for Villa tickets is from joe punter who wants a £30 ticket, a pie and a pint. That London effect, loadsamoney. Not like those northern monkeys in.Birninum Edited January 25 by Follyfoot 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 Just now, ender4 said: The general fan doesn't want all the crap of Terrace View and Lower Grounds, we want to watch a live football match. There's your problem, there's no money in that. General fan isn't going to pay you enough money to let you sign the new Fernando Nelson, or Tommy Johnson or Alan Thompson or even a Nii Lamptey. General fan isn't going to cover the £150m+ it costs to build a new stand. Simple numbers show you why Heck canned the project. Too bad he hadn't the balls to just tell us that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 3 minutes ago, ender4 said: That doesn't make sense. How about having 10,000 more seats as we already know we can sell those out 3x over with additional season tickets. The general fan doesn't want all the crap of Terrace View and Lower Grounds, we want to watch a live football match. Cost per seat of season tickets is lower obviously than selling them game by game basis so the club get even less per seat. It’s not about the average fan and football hasn’t been for a while now like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 (edited) 39 minutes ago, ender4 said: That doesn't make sense. How about having 10,000 more seats as we already know we can sell those out 3x over with additional season tickets. The general fan doesn't want all the crap of Terrace View and Lower Grounds, we want to watch a live football match. Well 10,000 people buying a ticket for say £50 (which I think is about the average assuming that there are the same number of Cat A and Cat B matches) is £500,000 extra a match. But if you can get the average fan with our existing capacity to spend £15 more (bearing in mind this is an average so some people will spend nothing and others might spend £100) then that is an extra £630,000 per match (42000 * 15). Given that the latter is lower risk, lower cost and generates a greater return then it looks like a pretty pragmatic approach to at least be exploring. PS - Ultimately I do believe that we do need to increase our capacity significantly if we are to compete long term but maybe there are better / quicker ways of increasing revenue that will allow us to spend money on the football team without adding a huge risk of potentially spiralling development costs into our FFP calculations. Edited January 25 by allani 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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