The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[bickster]

Just now, Jareth said:

Glad you agree they manipulated the image in order to defame the guy, because they did not like him - that's the entire point of this current debate.

Well yes and no, they artistically blended Corbyn into the Kremlin because they were making the obvious more obvious, Corbyn was too Pro-Russian

He made himself look like a right idiotic word removed over the Salisbury poisonings

[Jareth]

12 minutes ago, bickster said:

Well yes and no, they artistically blended Corbyn into the Kremlin because they were making the obvious more obvious, Corbyn was too Pro-Russian

He made himself look like a right idiotic word removed over the Salisbury poisonings

And there is the thing which stuck in the throats of a sizeable amount of people who voted for him - there were dirty tricks across the board, dishonesty at all levels. The notion he was a Russian puppet is also an oft repeated accusation - meanwhile Bozza? Meanwhile Cummings? Free passes. It matters not, a disunited Labour party does not get elected - and it is 100% going to stay that way. 

[Seat68]

We mock the absolute rose coloured affection that Dorries has for Johnson. Corbyn still has his admirers, gazing at his gorgeous catweazley face, seeing no negatives in him. Treating Starmer as the anti Christ. Thankfully I only see them pop up once in a while on Twitter. Elsewhere not so much. 

[magnkarl]

6 hours ago, Jareth said:

He didn't seek out any Jewish wing, they backed him up, and also all left wing Jews are extremists? Maybe you have a situation where there is a majority of right wingers? England certainly has. It's not a zero sum game to any observer, it's a rotten situation but to state both sides are in the wrong is not antisemitism - unless it somehow now is. The guy was taken down using antisemitism - and it absolutely damaged the credibility of the term in nearly half of the UK's eyes - all of the UK's cities voted Labour in 2019, Birmingham, Manchester, London and all the others -  because they could see the bullshit - is half of the UK antisemitic? 

Did you read about Jewdas yet? No one has claimed half the UK is antisemitic. You need to try to read what is written rather than spinning it in your head to be labour hate.

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

Did you read about Jewdas yet? No one has claimed half the UK is antisemitic. You need to try to read what is written rather than spinning it in your head to be labour hate.

Did you read about the other left wing Jews? Did you notice the Labour party are currently processing antisemitism claims against a very large number of Jewish people? Did you hear the one about disaffected Labour staff witholding AS claims so as to paint Corbyn as inactive on the subject? Anyway, nobody hates Labour anymore - they're not a threat, and all those antisemitic members have just evaporated, cos Starmer.   

[magnkarl]

33 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Did you read about the other left wing Jews? Did you notice the Labour party are currently processing antisemitism claims against a very large number of Jewish people? Did you hear the one about disaffected Labour staff witholding AS claims so as to paint Corbyn as inactive on the subject? Anyway, nobody hates Labour anymore - they're not a threat, and all those antisemitic members have just evaporated, cos Starmer.   

Again, this side stepping of the original post does your line of arguing no favours.

JC had not one, but several issues surrounding this topic. You can’t blame that all on the media. You can’t blame the serious blinkered past, the pandering to certain people and the total idiocy surrounding dealing with his close mates stepping over the line repeatedly as the media being the sole reason for JCs exit. JC managed to kick himself out by being the way he was well on his own.

[Jareth]

5 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Again, this side stepping of the original post does your line of arguing no favours.

JC had not one, but several issues surrounding this topic. You can’t blame that all on the media. You can’t blame the serious blinkered past, the pandering to certain people and the total idiocy surrounding dealing with his close mates stepping over the line repeatedly as the media being the sole reason for JCs exit. JC managed to kick himself out by being the way he was well on his own.

Just that little matter of his EU minister going for the 2nd ref idea wasn’t there - as well as the balanced coverage of broadband COMMUNISM!!! But the guy lost - 100% right - now that antisemitism is solved I expect Labour to sweep the next election - or the next one - or the one after that. 

[KentVillan]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

Just that little matter of his EU minister going for the 2nd ref idea wasn’t there - as well as the balanced coverage of broadband COMMUNISM!!! But the guy lost - 100% right - now that antisemitism is solved I expect Labour to sweep the next election - or the next one - or the one after that. 

Or just win any majority at all? It sounds like you’re imposing a tough target on them so that you can still feel vindicated if Starmer turns out to be more electable than Corbyn?

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, KentVillan said:

Or just win any majority at all? It sounds like you’re imposing a tough target on them so that you can still feel vindicated if Starmer turns out to be more electable than Corbyn?

If your politics is to give people what the focus groups want - folks will naturally ask themselves why they need a leader at all. 

[KentVillan]

12 minutes ago, Jareth said:

If your politics is to give people what the focus groups want - folks will naturally ask themselves why they need a leader at all. 

You’re confusing two things - how to win elections and how to govern a country.

You can only do the latter by first doing the former.

Sadly achieving the former does involve at least some sense of what the ordinary swing voter cares about, as frustrating as that is.

If you think there’s another way, then fair enough, but it’s not as if your man didn’t have a fair crack at it.

[Jareth]

42 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

You’re confusing two things - how to win elections and how to govern a country.

You can only do the latter by first doing the former.

Sadly achieving the former does involve at least some sense of what the ordinary swing voter cares about, as frustrating as that is.

If you think there’s another way, then fair enough, but it’s not as if your man didn’t have a fair crack at it.

Do you not find the mantra that to win means to do whatever it takes - problematic? The only precedent to that is Blair who arguably in 1997 was a breath of fresh air. Starmer is charmless, willing to deceive and TBH if none of that works Labour will need to start again.the likes of Wes Streeting will only repeat the error. There needs to be some big ideas on either side of the aisle - we are staring at an absolute dearth. 

[KentVillan]

12 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Do you not find the mantra that to win means to do whatever it takes - problematic? The only precedent to that is Blair who arguably in 1997 was a breath of fresh air. Starmer is charmless, willing to deceive and TBH if none of that works Labour will need to start again.the likes of Wes Streeting will only repeat the error. There needs to be some big ideas on either side of the aisle - we are staring at an absolute dearth. 

I do - the lack of ideas across the board is worrying. But to be honest, it’s much easier to generate those ideas in government when you have a lot more resource at your disposal in terms of policy advisers, civil servants, and loads more MPs to choose from for the front bench and junior ministerial roles.

We have an annoying situation where revealing any ideas in Opposition just exposes you to bad faith attacks from the media and govt outriders - as Corbyn experienced with virtually every policy announcement he made, including the sensible ones (nationalising railways, for example, is not a crazy idea, when it’s impossible to have a competitive market for a single route).

I don’t really know what the answer is without a significant overhaul of the way we do democracy. But while it’s in the state it’s in right now, and with the voting system we have, I don’t see much alternative to playing it safe, clawing back power, and then building from there. Not very inspiring, I know, but as I mentioned earlier, there are a lot of basic reasons (corruption, corporate capture, ethics, attention to detail, Brexit, etc) for preferring a Starmer led govt to this shower, even if they don’t have anything revolutionary to say.

[bickster]

3 hours ago, Jareth said:

The notion he was a Russian puppet is also an oft repeated accusation - meanwhile Bozza?

I think puppet gives him far too much credit and implies he got something in return, he's not clever enough to be a puppet. The puppet, if anyone is, is Seamas Milne. He really cannot and will not shake off his Stalinist leanings, it's there for all to see in his media columns.

I'm not sure what good your Boris Johnson whataboutism is doing to any argument you think you have. But Johnson and the Tory Party have been exposed many times for their Russian connections, I'm not entirely sure how you've missed that. Moreso than Corbyn for that matter. The Tories and Johnson have been bought by Russian money, we all know it, hell they've accepted £62,000 since the Ukraine war started

But getting back to St Jeremy, he'd have shaken off the Russia thing, if he'd stopped saying the same things as Putin but he can't seemingly help himself

[magnkarl]

11 hours ago, Jareth said:

Just that little matter of his EU minister going for the 2nd ref idea wasn’t there - as well as the balanced coverage of broadband COMMUNISM!!! But the guy lost - 100% right - now that antisemitism is solved I expect Labour to sweep the next election - or the next one - or the one after that. 

Racism and other forms of prejudice isn't ever 'solved'. As long as there are people in the party who are racist in any way, no one, including you, has any reason to claim it is 'solved'. Hence filming a video recently at a holocaust memorial in Berlin to  show how serious the new leadership is, is just as tone deaf as many of the things that happened in JC's era. It's just that Starmer has at least shown some willingness to deal with the issues that plagued JC's circle and Labour at the time in general, be that Milne, Livingstone, Dalyell, Linton, Kaufmann (yes I know he's jewish), Shah, Walker, Shawcroft +++. JC made AS in Labour main-stream by being who he is, and it doesn't take much soul searching to realise that he's been in the gray zone a bit too much to not either do it on purpose or point to the fact that he's blinded by his thoughts on Israel to differentiate criticism of Israel with antisemitism. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by magnkarl

[blandy]

9 hours ago, KentVillan said:

the lack of ideas across the board is worrying. But to be honest, it’s much easier to generate those ideas in government when you have a lot more resource at your disposal in terms of policy advisers, civil servants, and loads more MPs to choose from

While completely agreeing with most of your posts, this is completely the opposite of my view. Ideas don’t need resource, they almost need an absence of it, they’re either tweaks to the way things are done, or big blue sky ideas. The challenge I guess is once you’ve got into government to stress test them, to filter out the impractical and impossible and to implement the good ones against inevitable opposition.

Labour has, since Starmer took over, done most of what’s necessary to move to being electable, but they are short of blue sky ideas. Plenty of stuff around tweaking this or that for the better, which is nice, but the big vision hopey changey stuff is still missing. I don’t mean digging out old policies from Corbyn’s allotment shed for the sake of it - “nationalise bees”, “free trowels for all under 12s”, “integrate the minority hedgehog population with the rabbits”, but a selling point vision of future Britain heading away from the rocks we’ve been driven on to by the baby eaters.

[Jareth]

36 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Racism and other forms of prejudice isn't ever 'solved'. 

Well oddly enough literally every single person crowing about it before, is no longer doing so - yet the Labour membership remains largely unchanged. Are we to conclude it it is solved or that it was possibly manufactured in the first place? Or something else?

[juanpabloangel18]

42 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Hence filming a video recently at a holocaust memorial in Berlin to  show how serious the new leadership is, is just as tone deaf 

Why is that tone deaf?

[Xann]

The muggged off don't think they were mugs shocker.

Thought the last three years might have filled some blanks, for those without the foresight or critical thinking to have sussed the Brexit PM was going to ransack the joint?

So this'll be a slow cooker of realisation, like the Global Warming thread.

[bickster]

12 minutes ago, Jareth said:

yet the Labour membership remains largely unchanged.

Is it?

100,000 people have left Labour in the last 18 months. It peaked at around 564,000 at the end of 2017, last year it was 532,000 now it's down to 430,000

[blandy]

20 minutes ago, Xann said:

The muggged off don't think they were mugs shocker.

Thought the last three years might have filled some blanks, for those without the foresight or critical thinking to have sussed the Brexit PM was going to ransack the joint?

So this'll be a slow cooker of realisation, like the Global Warming thread.

You've probably posted that in the wrong thread?

I mean pretty much everyone in this thread predicted what the baby eaters would do - there's not many, if any "mugged off/mugs " in here...

It's a monumental shame, of course that the Labour party back in 2019 was all over the shop on Brexit, on all kinds of stuff and was utterly unable to offer the voters something that they could get behind to stop what was going to happen. People can blame "centrists"/Corbynites/general incompetence/in-fighting/all of the above, but that's the reality. Labour was a shambles to such an extent that Bunter and his thieves romped home.

It's less of a shambles, now, but still has a way to go to get to the point where people actively choose it, rather than it being an "anyone but the tories" choice on the ballot papers