Manager Paul Lambert

[Jimzk5]

He can't pocket any of the extra tv money because we won't get it for another 7 months.

[Isa]

He can't pocket any of the extra tv money because we won't get it for another 7 months.

Fair enough.

[Big_John_10]

isn't he still putting money into the club?

Currently a piss poor amount.

[Mantis]

 

isn't he still putting money into the club?

Currently a piss poor amount.

 

I wasn't just talking about transfer fees and wages.

[Big_John_10]

isn't he still putting money into the club?

Currently a piss poor amount.

I wasn't just talking about transfer fees and wages.

What's he putting in?

[Mantis]

 

 

 

isn't he still putting money into the club?

Currently a piss poor amount.

I wasn't just talking about transfer fees and wages.

What's he putting in?

 

Money to cover the running costs as well I think.

[Big_John_10]

isn't he still putting money into the club?

Currently a piss poor amount.

I wasn't just talking about transfer fees and wages.

What's he putting in?

Money to cover the running costs as well I think.

Wasn't that as loans to the club? Which he can charge interest on? And that's because he'd had to due to running his investment poorly.

[praisedmambo]

 

 

 

 

 

isn't he still putting money into the club?

Currently a piss poor amount.

I wasn't just talking about transfer fees and wages.

What's he putting in?

Money to cover the running costs as well I think.

Wasn't that as loans to the club? Which he can charge interest on? And that's because he'd had to due to running his investment poorly.

 

But you're moaning about him not spending even more money, and in the same sentence you call when he was spending even more money running his investment poorly. 

[Big_John_10]

EDIT : BOF "Sigh"

Wasn't that as loans to the club? Which he can charge interest on? And that's because he'd had to due to running his investment poorly.

But you're moaning about him not spending even more money, and in the same sentence you call when he was spending even more money running his investment poorly.

Did I say just spending money was running his investment poorly?

Spending with no thought for the future at a level that couldn't be sustained was stupid. Following that up with awful managerial appointments just added to the issues. Are you going to argue than he's ran his investment well? I would love to see evidence for that.

Now that our outgoings are no longer at a level thats unsustainable I do believe he should be investing more money into the club, especially as the new TV deal will see more money coming into the club. I take it you don't think he should? You're happy for a manager that you like so much to not be backed with top targets?

[praisedmambo]

Last I heard we were losing £50mil a year. That was a couple of years ago.

I'd like to know where we're at now.Times are different to when Lerner took over—the recession has affected many people, and it seems to have affected Lerner too. 

 

I'm not so spoilt to think that anyone's going to come in a spunk away £300-£400million on the club and subsidise the wages. I don't like this money is everything mentality in life or in football, so I respect the idea that the club is to be sustainable from now on. There is nothing quick fix about this process—hence my patience last year, and my patience now. But it is happening with Lambert. Buy low, eventually sell big (hopefully) and reinvest. Many people can see that's where we're at, so I don't expect anything from Lerner.

 

And what's the alternative? Long for an Abramovic or an Abu Dhabi?

 

I honestly think I'd rather have Lerner. The club is as big as it is. If we can't afford big wages or big fees, then we can't afford it. 

 

Having said all that, I'm not without hope. I genuinely buy into what Lambert is doing. I hope over the next few windows he can focus on fewer transfers and spend the money we do have on quality rather than quantity. He's had to build a squad from scratch, and he's doing well I think. 

Edited November 13, 2013 by blandy

[srsmithusa]

I wonder if we're allowed to discuss Lambert in this thread, or if we most have conflicting assumptions about what the owner knew more in foresight than we can see in hindsight? I sometimes wish I was as unshakably confident in my assumptions.

[Butterfingers]

I believe Lerner gambled to get into the top 4, failed miserably & is now attempting to cut losses by slashing the wage bill (which takes a massive percentage of the running costs out of the equasion).

Clearly, any manager who comes in with a remit of getting rid of the so called bomb squad (experienced Premiership players on big wages) & replacing them with young, untried & generally unheard of kids has a massive task in front of him. I think we rode our luck massively last year & without Wigans cup run, we would probably at least have gone into the last game needing something out of it.

We got away with it & this year there has been a marked improvement. Unfortunately there are still going to be a percentage of people who will continually pick faults & negatives. The belittling of the goal celebrations against Man City by an obvious crank is perhaps the best indication of the lengths some people will go just to post something negative.

Great managers like BFR & BL had terrible seasons at the helm as well. The way some people post, an outsider could be forgiven in thinking we were always top 6 before Lamberts arrival.

[Big_John_10]

the recession has affected many people, and it seems to have affected Lerner too.

Yeah selling the browns for a billion dollars must really have hurt him. And the new improved TV deal must see him having sleepless nights.

so I respect the idea that the club is to be sustainable from now on

Then why do you want Lerner? If it's not money what is he actually bringing to the table? The guy has proven to make bad decisions with us and the browns that have held both clubs back.

Buy low, eventually sell big (hopefully) and reinvest. Many people can see that's where we're at, so I don't expect anything from Lerner.

There's no current proof that if we sell big we'll reinvest so that's just your hope. And this is where we're at because Lerner has chose that. You've accepted it for some strange reason.

I hope over the next few windows he can focus on fewer transfers and spend the money we do have on quality rather than quantity

He was given 10 million in the summer. Is that really going to bring in the quality we need? Edited November 13, 2013 by Big_John_10

[praisedmambo]

 

the recession has affected many people, and it seems to have affected Lerner too.

Yeah selling the browns for a billion dollars must really have hurt him. And the new improved TV deal must see him having sleepless nights.

so I respect the idea that the club is to be sustainable from now on

Then why do you want Lerner? If it's not money what is he actually bringing to the table? The guy has proven to make bad decisions with us and the browns that have held both clubs back.

Buy low, eventually sell big (hopefully) and reinvest. Many people can see that's where we're at, so I don't expect anything from Lerner.

There's no current proof that if we sell big we'll reinvest so that's just your hope. And this is where we're at because Lerner has chose that. You've accepted it for some strange reason.

I hope over the next few windows he can focus on fewer transfers and spend the money we do have on quality rather than quantity

He was given 10 million in the summer. Is that really going to bring in the quality we need?

 

Everton did it well enough. They got to a stage where they were buying one or two players rather than half a dozen+. Fellaini springs to mind. There might be no current proof, but there's also no current proof we won't invest higher. We have invested in the past. Even under Doug we made the odd big investment. Lerner has done nothing but pour money into the club, and I hope and expect that once the wages are settled at a reasonable level, and once there is not a single Darren Bent, Stephen Ireland or Shay Given, Alan Hutton, on the books, all of which we are still paying wages (at least a proportion, maybe not with Bent), then more managed re-investment in the squad can happen. There is no suggestion that this won't happen. I know you choose to believe otherwise, but we are both looking at the same facts from different point of views. You would call me optimistic, and I would call you pessimistic, and we will never agree. 

 

Which comes to the next point. I don't think Lerner has held the club back—not when compared to Doug Ellis! The fact is we have spent BIG under Lerner, and that counts for something. If it was a gamble it still happened. We failed. The world has changed since then—recessions, Man City. For whatever reason he isn't going to bankroll us from his own pocket any more, and in my world you can't moan at someone because they're unwilling to spunk away £50million+ a year on obscene wages for players who don't deserve it, and then a further load on top in transfer fees. I think what we're doing is sensible more than anything. Football needs to be more sensible. When you're not sensible you end up like Portsmouth or Leeds. 

 

And fear the day we get our own Venky's or Carson Yeoung. There are much worse situations to be in. 

 

There is some suggestion that he had to sell the Browns on account of his finances not being as strong as you think they are. Have you ever considered that?

 

You want a sugar daddy, and I don't. I'd rather Villa get somewhere the hard way (and yes there is a risk of getting nowhere forever, but I'd still rather that than the Abramovic/Abu Dhabi method). Yes, Lerner made mistakes—McLeish was an obscene decision—but I'm not blind: he has also put in crazy money to the club, more than any chairman we have ever had. The only choice now, as I see it, is to support Lambert and this methodology of buying young and hungry players. Be in it for the ride. I think a while ago I decided to be patient with Villa, otherwise I'd just make myself miserable. And yet now I look forwards to every game. 

 

As is obvious I very much support Lambert. I think he's doing a good job with the finances he has. It would be nice if he had more. Don't forget that TV money hasn't reached the club yet. Spending it early is another gamble. You chastise Lerner for running the investment badly, and yet you complain that he is unwilling to gamble with the club again. You're inconsistent. 

 

Regardless of everything, this club has needed an overhaul of players, and Lambert has done that. He has done that while improving us, and at times we have played nice football. We don't always play nice football. I said the other day—in our run since January at the end of last season there were many games where the football wasn't so good to watch. Some games we played badly, some we played well. We got results though, like on Saturday against Cardiff. Well run clubs, even if they are prudent in their spending, do get places. Tottenham and Everton are examples of that. Then there is Swansea winning the League Cup. I have hope for the future as things stand. Again, you might say I'm being optimistic, but I'd say you were being pessimistic. I'd rather have it my way if I'm honest. 

Edited November 13, 2013 by praisedmambo

[Big_John_10]

You want a sugar daddy, and I don't

I've said I obviously would be happy if that happened but I also know the chances of it happening are slim to none. But this isn't my issue with Lerner.

I don't want Lerner as he consistently has made bad decisions which put us to a point lower than any I'd experienced as a fan before. He consistently also made bad decisions at the Browns. So if he's not offering money I'm not sure what skills and attributes a proven failure who inherited his money brings to our club.

Don't forget that TV money hasn't reached the club yet. Spending it early is another gamble. You chastise Lerner for running the investment badly, and yet you complain that he is unwilling to gamble with the club again. You're inconsistent.

What on earth are you on about? First of all the TV money is clearly coming to the club, how is it a gamble to spend knowing this? Secondly when have I asked him to gamble with the club? You really do talk nonsense. Spending more than £10 million on 7 players and offering better wages than we currently do is not gambling with the future of the club. You seem to let your love of Lerner convince you that we're on the verge of going bust of we spend more than the tiny amount we currently have. Edited November 13, 2013 by Big_John_10

[praisedmambo]

I don't love Lerner. I think of him as a benign chairman rather than an atrocious one or a great one. 

 

We can't really discuss finances without our annual accounts, because I don't think we're yet on the sure footing you think we are. The last one I was aware of we were losing £50million a year, which was clearly madness. 

 

So it was sensible to be austere. 

 

Having said that, I'd agree that last season cut a bit close to the bone. I never gave up hope though, although I was close at one point. 

 

There's nothing I can discuss with you, because you live in a world where you expect super rich people to subsidise the club. Me, as I say, I'd hate that. It's just not the way I want the club or the world to be at all, so in a way, Villa's new mentality suits my outlook. **** all this waste. I'd say we were displaying progressive ideals if I wasn't aware that it will mean little: football is a financial pit of debt and multi-millionaires, and there is little place for good sense. 

 

But as I say, I believe given time we can do well. We might never win the league, but that's not Lerner's fault. That's what football has become—if you need an Abramovic to win the premiership then the whole thing has gone to shit already. 

 

Lerner has made some bad decisions, but they wouldn't have looked so bad if O'Neill had got us in the champions league. 

 

Then the recession did happen. Things changed. Exactly at the time when we began to cut costs, and I don't think that was a coincidence. But mistakes happen all the time. I don't think Lerner's mistakes were to a Venky level. I think he was naive more than anything. I hear he had McLeish set up before Birmingham were relegated, when McLeish was just a cup winner. And I'm not excusing the appointment in any way—I hated it, hated McLeish's season more than any other season at Villa. 

 

If things had been all bad under Lerner, and if he hadn't put in so much money redeveloping the club, the training ground etc. I might see where you're coming from, but I think you're making him an obvious target.

 

You never mentioned Doug Ellis when you responded. Because I very much remember where we were before Lerner came, and it wasn't far off where we have been the last three seasons!  

 

O'Neill was a false dawn if anything, but now, for the first time since maybe Brian Little, I believe we are building the club in a sensible way. Again, I do hope that we will see a better investment in the future. We are maybe one or two attacking midfield players from having a full healthy and balanced squad. It makes sense that now, given time, Lambert can fine tune that squad with (hopefully) higher quality individuals, like a Kiyotake for instance. We paid £8million for Benteke, I believe. We do still make decent investments. When we're down to buying only one or two players a window, rather than half a squad, I'd hope we would be in the £10-£12million bracket once more. We would make similar level purchases to Southampton and Swansea—two well run smaller clubs—and from there, with this new solid base we should be in a position to outperform them in the transfer market. Yes, I am optimistic. I hope this might happen in the next 2/3 years, and you will be pessimistic about it, fine, two different ways of looking at things. 

 

To be honest I'm not thinking about all that at all. But my point is, I don't think the future has to be all gloom at all. Once we're not losing £50million a year Lerner will be much more likely to reinvest. There is a big difference to losing £50million a year, spending £12million on a player, paying them £3million a year in wages—total outlay by Lerner £65million—and the club not making a loss, spending £12million on a player, paying them £3million a year on wages—total outlay by Lerner £15million. That's a difference of £50MILLION. 

 

And all that money was going to players not good enough or not even playing. I'm sure you'll just blame Lerner for the debt getting that high—and that's definitely part of it, but O'Neill really did look like he was going to make it into the top 4. The recession did then happen. I hate to suggest this as it's getting a bit of a cliche with you, but that situation might not be as black and white as you think. 

 

These are enormous sums of money we're talking about. Maybe Lerner just doesn't have it. 

Edited November 13, 2013 by praisedmambo

[Big_John_10]

You never mentioned Doug Ellis when you responded. Because I very much remember where we were before Lerner came, and it wasn't far off where we have been the last three seasons!

Doesn't this back up my opinion of how bad his been? Puts the club in debt to have us achieve our worst two premiership seasons. If that doesn't show how his decisions have affected us I don't know what does.

There's nothing I can discuss with you, because you live in a world where you expect super rich people to subsidise the club.

Noi live in a world where no one is forced to buy a football club. So if you do and you run it badly then I expect a billionaire to take a financial hit at times to ensure the club performs well. You live in a world where you have no problem what happens at the club you support while a billionaire makes sure he didn't lose money.

I don't need a super rich owner but if we're not going to have a rich owner I want one who hadn't proven to be a complete failure in the things he's chosen to spend his inherited money on.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Big_John_10

[praisedmambo]

Bit harsh though. We also had three of our best seasons under him. When he took a financial hit. 

 

You're ignoring all context and...wait for it...looking at everything, including how you think I view the club...in black and in white (sorry to say it again, last time). So nevermind. 

 

I don't think any billionaire has to take a financial hit for the club to perform well, and I think that is where we're headed now, and I prefer it that way. I do expect, when we're not wasting money, Lerner to begin to re-invest, as he has done in the past. I imagine he might be a bit more prudent this time, however. But it makes total sense to get the house in order first, which is still happening. But we're already building for a more stable future. And that's good! Look, Benteke got a big contract—Lerner is still putting investment into the club. We still have a transfer budget, which is more than Everton had for about 4 years. 

 

Come show me the figures. Say we're now still losing £20milion a year, and Lambert got a budget this summer of £15million thereabouts, then this 'billionaire' is still taking a financial hit of £35million. That's not nothing. £35MILLION. 

 

Getting rid of the last bunch of bomb squad will likely free up £10million. That's an attacking midfielder right there. You could look at it that we're not investing so much in the team now because the money we would spend on the transfer is currently going to Bent, Given, Ireland, Hutton, and any other player not in Lambert's plans, players he inherited. 

 

Who never taught you the value of money. 

Edited November 13, 2013 by praisedmambo

[turnbull]

When he bought the club, Lerner needed good, experienced advice on running Villa and he didn't get it. What happened in the ensuing years has made him cautious financially, in many ways, rightly so. 

Until he decides to get rid, there's no alternative.

[KHV]

Last I heard we were losing £50mil a year. That was a couple of years ago.

I'd like to know where we're at now.Times are different to when Lerner took over—the recession has affected many people, and it seems to have affected Lerner too. 

 

I'm not so spoilt to think that anyone's going to come in a spunk away £300-£400million on the club and subsidise the wages. I don't like this money is everything mentality in life or in football, so I respect the idea that the club is to be sustainable from now on. There is nothing quick fix about this process—hence my patience last year, and my patience now. But it is happening with Lambert. Buy low, eventually sell big (hopefully) and reinvest. Many people can see that's where we're at, so I don't expect anything from Lerner.

 

And what's the alternative? Long for an Abramovic or an Abu Dhabi?

 

I honestly think I'd rather have Lerner. The club is as big as it is. If we can't afford big wages or big fees, then we can't afford it. 

 

Having said all that, I'm not without hope. I genuinely buy into what Lambert is doing. I hope over the next few windows he can focus on fewer transfers and spend the money we do have on quality rather than quantity. He's had to build a squad from scratch, and he's doing well I think. 

we lost £54m for the 2010/2011 season, the results for 2011/2012 showed we lost £17.4m 

still making losses but clearly coming in the right direction, would be interesting to see what the 2012/2013 figures are. I would imagine we are still not breaking even yet though.