Tactics/Plays

[Tayls]

We don't really have anywhere to discuss tactics and plays which we implement/should be using. Be good if we could have a good look at some data of our season so far and compare against our competition and get some good analysis going?

This thread shouldn't be confused with the Paul Lambert thread though. I think if its done properly we could keep the two separate.

Anybody got any data or ideas to share?

[Tayls]

Or not... Probs better to discuss the same stuff.

[8pints]

I prefer the 4-1-2-2-1 to the 4-4-2 Narrow diamond.

[jon_c]

The narrow diamond would be a lot more effective if we had someone with creativity at the point of the diamond. If we're going to use it, then that player is the number one priority in January.

[mikeyp102]

The narrow diamond would be a lot more effective if we had someone with creativity at the point of the diamond. If we're going to use it, then that player is the number one priority in January.

It also needs the fullbacks to go forward more, it would've come with time and experience but the change was needed as it suits the players we have at this time.

[P3te]

i think we'd all like to see a bit more width in the team anyway. are zog and albrighton injured or just dropped? im not saying both should get into the first team, just curious. if we're going to be a successful team (relatively speaking) we need to have a plan a and a plan b, preferably both on the pitch at the same time, so wide players who can come inside should be top of the shopping list

[Jarpie]

i think we'd all like to see a bit more width in the team anyway. are zog and albrighton injured or just dropped? im not saying both should get into the first team, just curious. if we're going to be a successful team (relatively speaking) we need to have a plan a and a plan b, preferably both on the pitch at the same time, so wide players who can come inside should be top of the shopping list

ZiggyZoggy is injured afaik, Albrighton is just shit.

[Tayls]

So do you think most fans prefer wing play? Does anybody have any figures that they can provide to show assists from previous seasons from when we had wingers so we can start to compare with this season?

I think what Lambert is doing now, whilst we are not particularly good at it, it's very 'current' in that 'bigger' teams are adopting it. I think what it does is allows you to play players who are able to play in multiple positions, and so goals can be spread nicely in the team. Ie, strikers as wingers. ... We just need better players, to but it bluntly.

I quite like the formation though, If we can start using it like Chelsea for example, I would be happy. (though they may change slightly with Benitez)

[Tayls]

What's interesting is that, against arsenal, in the last 13 minutes (80th-93rd).... We only passed the ball 21 times - only 12 of those passes were successful. That's not very good! Shows how much pressure we were under. Also in those last few minutes, Lichaj was our most effective player - ie, got hold of the ball the most to try and start something.

[P3te]

So do you think most fans prefer wing play?

i think given our resources, and the fact we can never attract the best in the world, being competent at both wing play and through the middle play is essential to make us tough to beat. we were too one dimensional under mon with his wing play only, and we're looking too one dimensional under lambert with his through the middle approach. however im fairly confident that we'll continue to improve with our performances, the results will follow, and this time last year we'll be taking the piss out of those who wanted the guy sacked after 12 games

[briny_ear]

What's interesting is that, against arsenal, in the last 13 minutes (80th-93rd).... We only passed the ball 21 times - only 12 of those passes were successful. That's not very good! Shows how much pressure we were under. Also in those last few minutes, Lichaj was our most effective player - ie, got hold of the ball the most to try and start something.

There was an interesting stat on MOTD2 last night, ranking premier league clubs by passing accuracy. The top clubs - Man U, Arsenal, Man C and Swansea - were all above 85%, the top 11 all above 80%, top 15 all better than 79%. Villa? You've guessed it, bottom 5, which was

West Ham 76.3%

Villa 75.8%

Norwich 74.4%

Stoke 71%

Reading 68.3%

I've never placed much emphasis on stats like this, except, given that Lambert is supposedly trying to institute a "passing" game at Villa, this does measure the extent of his failure so far. If he wants to persist in turning us into a "passing" team, this is the key to improvement far more than adopting any particular formation.

[Stevo985]

I'd be interested if we could monitor that sta for the rest of the season.

"Turning us into" is the key phrase. Not "Turned into"

If the stat improves, then we're going the right way.

Also, what was our stat last season?

[El-Reacho]

There was an interesting stat on MOTD2 last night, ranking premier league clubs by passing accuracy. The top clubs - Man U, Arsenal, Man C and Swansea - were all above 85%, the top 11 all above 80%, top 15 all better than 79%. Villa? You've guessed it, bottom 5, which was

West Ham 76.3%

Villa 75.8%

Norwich 74.4%

Stoke 71%

Reading 68.3%

I've never placed much emphasis on stats like this, except, given that Lambert is supposedly trying to institute a "passing" game at Villa, this does measure the extent of his failure so far. If he wants to persist in turning us into a "passing" team, this is the key to improvement far more than adopting any particular formation.

I think we're starting to veer away from the 'passing game' that we were attempting at the start of the season that was unsuccessful, with two up front and a diamond four in the middle. Our passing was visibly bad let alone looking at the stats, but with Bannan and Westwood coming into the team, and Weimann and Gabby playing wider I think we're changing to a more direct counter attacking game with long balls to Benteke, and the likes of Ireland, Weimann and Gabby carrying the ball rather than looking for a pass. The back four and Bannan and Westwood have looked much better at keeping the ball too than at the start of the season. I reckon that sat should improve if we can keep playing like we did on Saturday.

[Tayls]

I think we're starting to veer away from the 'passing game' that we were attempting at the start of the season that was unsuccessful, with two up front and a diamond four in the middle. Our passing was visibly bad let alone looking at the stats, but with Bannan and Westwood coming into the team, and Weimann and Gabby playing wider I think we're changing to a more direct counter attacking game with long balls to Benteke, and the likes of Ireland, Weimann and Gabby carrying the ball rather than looking for a pass. The back four and Bannan and Westwood have looked much better at keeping the ball too than at the start of the season. I reckon that sat should improve if we can keep playing like we did on Saturday.

I think we are heading away from the passing, trying to dominate approach, simply because of the players we have. We are playing the 4-3-3 and will start countering more with gabby and Weimann out wide and Benteke on the centre. (though, I would prefer someone other than Weimann out there, however Albrighton and N'Zogbia who are the obvious choices have been crap)...

Westwood has been particularly effective in the middle, very composed and reliable. He attempted 43 passes against Arsenal - 39 of those were successful. He only played 1 back pass. 3 long balls which were all successful. 15 passes in the final third of which 12 were successful. Pretty good for an inexperienced prem player.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Pity Guardian's chalkboards is no more.

Passes down the flanks should be interesting. It is definitely a tactic we use, and one Norwich used, quite a bit. The problem is we push Benteke/Gabby/Weeman out wide when they aren't that good at crossing the ball. Gabby is probably the best out there but I do think if we are to stick that approach we should get players better suited to it.

[Tayls]

Pity Guardian's chalkboards is no more.

Passes down the flanks should be interesting. It is definitely a tactic we use, and one Norwich used, quite a bit. The problem is we push Benteke/Gabby/Weeman out wide when they aren't that good at crossing the ball. Gabby is probably the best out there but I do think if we are to stick that approach we should get players better suited to it.

Going by the stats I'm looking at Gabby was actually pretty terrible v Arsenal. Attempted 3 crosses and 0 came off. (though that could be down to positioning of the receiving player/s?) Attempted 20 passes all game, 15 came off. Attempted 6 take-ons, 0 came off.

I think they definitely are positions we need to add quality too, especially if we are going to stick to the formation

[P3te]

There was an interesting stat on MOTD2 last night, ranking premier league clubs by passing accuracy. The top clubs - Man U, Arsenal, Man C and Swansea - were all above 85%, the top 11 all above 80%, top 15 all better than 79%. Villa? You've guessed it, bottom 5, which was

West Ham 76.3%

Villa 75.8%

Norwich 74.4%

Stoke 71%

Reading 68.3%

I've never placed much emphasis on stats like this, except, given that Lambert is supposedly trying to institute a "passing" game at Villa, this does measure the extent of his failure so far. If he wants to persist in turning us into a "passing" team, this is the key to improvement far more than adopting any particular formation.

all that means is that the players aren't quite able for it yet. i'd like to see the figure for the next 13 games when they're out of the way to see if there's much of an improvement, and also take a look at the stats from the last 13 games of last season too. they don't really have a context at the moment in terms of improvement

[El-Reacho]

Not sure where to post as the Paul Lambert thread is closed but there was a bit of talk about Villa on yesterday's Guardian Football Weekly podcast.

Philip Auclair was singing Lambert's praises about how well Villa were set up on Saturday night, and likened us to Borussia Dortmund's current team. I'm not sure whether this is just a lazy comment by him based on Lambert's past as I haven't really seen Dortmund play lately, but he said we are adopting the same tactic of picking out crucial players and hounding them in numbers so they simply can't create anything. He reckoned Lambert had done exceptionally well on Saturday night.

I think they all agreed that of the bottom teams there was plenty of life left in ourselves and Southampton.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

I can see the similarity. When I've seen Dortmund play they tend to pile pressure in the same areas we do, and they have a big(ish) striker to play around, who can drift into the channels and bring in midfielders with his hold up play. Of course, they have considerably better players to do it with, but I can see where he is coming from.

[Eames]

Going by the stats I'm looking at Gabby was actually pretty terrible v Arsenal. Attempted 3 crosses and 0 came off. (though that could be down to positioning of the receiving player/s?) Attempted 20 passes all game, 15 came off. Attempted 6 take-ons, 0 came off.

I think they definitely are positions we need to add quality too, especially if we are going to stick to the formation

To be fair to Gabby, he is not and never will be a winger of any sort. He is a striker (yes he can't shoot THAT well either) but that is where his strengths lie.