PB Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 This thing about [essentially] "Grow a pair, and appoint who you think best" has it's place. Then again, good business practice does not ignore the wishes of the customers - while businesses (and football clubs) almost never allow customers (or fans) to decide who should manage, they do well to listen to views of their customer/fan base, in who not to appoint. Greenpeace would not appoint the former head of BP Tony Hayward to their board. Not only would he be a bad fit, but his record hardly recommends him as a success. Not for a minute would they contemplate it, despite his history in energy industries, including Green fuels. Greenpeace would lose credibility, lose income and lose support.. As always Pete you make some outstanding points and its difficult to argue with much you have pointed out. On one thing I think I would disagree. I am not entirely sure that football fans are necessarily consumers in the typical sense of the word. Certainly, they should be listened to when it comes to 'classic' consumer issues - ticketing, catering, access to the ground etc etc. Not listening to your 'customers' on this kind of issue will certainly lead to problems. However, what it is that football fans are buying into is different to that. Football fans want their team to do well, and this, imo, over-rides whatever else is going on. If, at the end of the day McLeish is successful (in Villa terms) then the fans will very quickly forget all this mess, because they will be having their need to see Villa win met. It is also the case that alot of fans have been very unreasonable and unrealistic in who they wanted as manager. I dont know about this board, but on Twitter there was fury at the suggestion that Benitez might be manager, scorn poured on McLaren and indifference towards Ranieri, all of which I find baffling. Maybe Randy just figured out that if he carried on listening to the fans he wouldnt appoint anyone unless he could persuade Villas-Boas, Ancelotti or Van Gaal to come. Its probably his own fault for raising expectations in the first place. I dont think appointing McLeish was right, but i also dont think its the calamity some would have us believe. I dont see any reason why he wouldnt do every bit as good/bad (delete as you see fit) a job as O'Neill did. I expect to see Villa in that sort of 6th-8th spot under him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Villa_Fan Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 There comes a time however, when continued backing of a manager is weak. For example, when you have given a manager the resources required to achieve a certain target, and he fails to achieve that target within a reasonable time frame. So, according to you, the money MON got in his first 3 years have been enough to achieve Champions league and 3 years has been a reasonable time frame to get a club from 16th to 4th? I think you won't find many to agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 So, according to you, the money MON got in his first 3 years have been enough to achieve Champions league and 3 years has been a reasonable time frame to get a club from 16th to 4th? I think you won't find many to agree with this. I dont think everyone going over and over this ground is really doing anyone any favours. O'Neill came, spent a shed load of money (on players who ultimately didnt perform as well as they should have done given their hefty price tags and wage packets), then left at the worst possible moment. End of story. Speaking purely from my own point of view, as stated on here about a million times, I wouldnt have given him the chance to do the dirty in the way he did as I would have binned him at the very latest at the end of the previous season when the comparison with what Redknapp was achieving on similar resources at Spurs became clear. This isnt hindsight, this is the opinion I stated on here for the last year plus of O'Neill's tenure. Just IMHO, feel free to disagree, you are clearly going to do so anyway. [edited by PB] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 There comes a time however, when continued backing of a manager is weak. For example, when you have given a manager the resources required to achieve a certain target, and he fails to achieve that target within a reasonable time frame. So, according to you, the money MON got in his first 3 years have been enough to achieve Champions league and 3 years has been a reasonable time frame to get a club from 16th to 4th? I think you won't find many to agree with this. I don't see how anyone could possibly argue that we should have got top 4. Not sure what premiership they've been watching if they think it's that easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 20, 2011 Moderator Share Posted June 20, 2011 On the listening to customers (fans) point. Supermarkets all "listen" (pay lip service) to their customers, if they think the solutions are practical and will make the "shopping experience" more pleasureable and the lightening of customers pocket easier to achieve, and as you've rightly pointed out the club have done this with some considerable success since Mr Lerner bought the club. But if that Supermarket appointed a previously convicted paedophile (for that is very similar in terms of revulsion for Villa fans on McLeish) to be its manager, who did have some previous retail experience amid suggestions that the supermarket weren't going to be dictated to by its customer base and they'd chosen a very good candidate, would you expect most of its customers to stay loyal to their brand? Sure a few of its customers might say, give him a chance, etc etc but most people would chose not to go there. I'm not saying mob rule should be allowed to win but when something is so obviously wrong as a fit it would have to be a concern that influenced the decision. A supermarket wouldn't employ a convicted paedophile as manager from the start. No matter how suitable he was for the job in terms of qualifications and experience. And for the record, my real objections isn't macleish's shaphilia, its actually his record and style of play. People moaned about MON's long ball tactics when they didn't exist as such, lord knows how they'll react to the rubbish McLeish's teams usually serve up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I don't see how anyone could possibly argue that we should have got top 4. Not sure what premiership they've been watching if they think it's that easy. Harry did. If I was owner of Villa I'd be thinking, how? Why? Why not me? If I was Villa's owner I'd be livid that my money didnt buy what Spurs got. A Cup final defeat and a couple of sixth placed finishes. Thanks a bloody lot. How about my trips to the San Siro and Bernabau? Sorry, but I genuinely dont get why Villa fans arent more angry with O'Neill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 But if that Supermarket appointed a previously convicted paedophile While I understand the point of view that you are putting across, I think its maybe time that Villa fans stopped thinking of Birmingham in these kind of terms. I know that many do, but I think its small time. Villa's rivals are Spurs, Liverpool, Everton and Man City. Birmingham are a nothing club of no more matter to us than Coventry. I think we give them more attention than they deserve. Oh, and McLeish isnt a paedophile ( I guess). He is just, to use your analogy, a Sainsbury's manager who has been employed by Tesco in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 20, 2011 Author Moderator Share Posted June 20, 2011 ...if that Supermarket appointed a previously convicted paedophile (for that is very similar in terms of revulsion for Villa fans on McLeish)... Not really, Bicks. In fact that should win this year's Ian McCulloch award for lack of perspective. I do get the overall point, but it's a poor analogy, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 20, 2011 Moderator Share Posted June 20, 2011 Sainsburys shoppers wouldn't be horrified at a Tesco manager there is no revulsion, its the revulsion that is important to many and the revulsion which is important in the analagy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sovietdonkeycrusher Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 hope this is the right place to post, i'm new to this forum. i can't believe he would turn down mclaren due to fans backlash then get desperate and stick to his guns regarding mcleish. transfer targets: the key player for mclaren at fc twente was a certain bryan ruiz, the closest to a new merson we're likely to see. have watched videos of the guy and read a fair bit he's got flair, creativity, technique and an eye for goal. would greatly complement bent upfront, creating and scoring. so we've lost any chance now of an exciting marquee signing. rumours say DJ campbell as the extra striker? hardly exciting. i really wish we hired mclaren and, unlike most, i was excited by that prospect from day 1. i know a little about his fc twente team and they've got some really exciting talents that mclaren could have brought to VP. not the same as mcleish........ neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted June 20, 2011 Moderator Share Posted June 20, 2011 Not all business's think in the same way - if the Church had listened to its customers Jesus wouldn't be dead. Which is a sort of roundabout way of saying we're not like a supermarket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 If we were a supermarket we'd be Budgens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 ...if that Supermarket appointed a previously convicted paedophile (for that is very similar in terms of revulsion for Villa fans on McLeish)... Not really, Bicks. In fact that should win this year's Ian McCulloch award for lack of perspective. I do get the overall point, but it's a poor analogy, to say the least. It's an irresponsible analogy, really. I would assume most people's revulsion towards child rapists is IMMEASURABLY different than their revulsion at AM's managerial appointment. Let's not get hysterical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolteExile Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 It's great (if a little late in coming) that RL now knows how to fight dirty, like most Prem owners. His responsibility is to his club, not to the Fulham, Wigan or Everton heirachy. No point in trying to convey an Old Etonian, pious image when the competition would have the eyes out of your head if it they believed it to be beneficial to their cause. Just a shame that this ruthlessness and lack of concern seems to be directed at Villa fans as much as Birmingham City FC. Any selection process that has Alex McLeish as the outstanding candidate is deeply flawed, so unfortunately RL getting tough on this one is minor consolation in the grand scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry'sboots Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 His responsibility is to his club, not to the Fulham, Wigan or Everton heirachy. No point in trying to convey an Old Etonian, pious image when the competition would have the eyes out of your head if it they believed it to be beneficial to their cause. I don't believe this. If you behave reasonably with someone they will deal with you again. I would hope if we went in for a Leeds or Wigan player (e.g. NZogbia), following the positive comments from Bates and Whelan we would be at the top of the list. However, I do agree that the appointment of McLeish was the wrong time to discover his balls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I don't see how anyone could possibly argue that we should have got top 4. Not sure what premiership they've been watching if they think it's that easy. Harry did. If I was owner of Villa I'd be thinking, how? Why? Why not me? If I was Villa's owner I'd be livid that my money didnt buy what Spurs got. A Cup final defeat and a couple of sixth placed finishes. Thanks a bloody lot. How about my trips to the San Siro and Bernabau? Sorry, but I genuinely dont get why Villa fans arent more angry with O'Neill. Redknapp inherited a much better team, they were low down because Ramos was awlful. Also spurs are for some reasons a more attractive club than us and have found it easier persuading the right quality to join. Doesn't it tell you something that a lot of villa fans aren't angry with him for not making the top 4? Just true blinded hatred from the odd few like yourself. There isn't a good argument as to why we should have gone from 16th to 4th in 3 seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolteExile Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 His responsibility is to his club, not to the Fulham, Wigan or Everton heirachy. No point in trying to convey an Old Etonian, pious image when the competition would have the eyes out of your head if it they believed it to be beneficial to their cause. I don't believe this. If you behave reasonably with someone they will deal with you again. I would hope if we went in for a Leeds or Wigan player (e.g. NZogbia), following the positive comments from Bates and Whelan we would be at the top of the list. However, I do agree that the appointment of McLeish was the wrong time to discover his balls! Maybe they'd give us a higher priority because of previous nice behaviour. Maybe. I think it's more likely they'd sell to the club who offered the most though. That Bates quote often gets recycled, but it was as much a pop at Man Citeh as it was a compliment to us. Citeh had offered more, but then got cold feet and started to drag the deal out. Yet because they had offered more, Bates gave them first dibs -despite our impeccable conduct. Funny that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Any selection process that has Alex McLeish as the outstanding candidate is deeply flawed, so unfortunately RL getting tough on this one is minor consolation in the grand scheme of things. I dont disagree :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sellbydate Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 But if that Supermarket appointed a previously convicted paedophile While I understand the point of view that you are putting across, I think its maybe time that Villa fans stopped thinking of Birmingham in these kind of terms. I know that many do, but I think its small time. Villa's rivals are Spurs, Liverpool, Everton and Man City. Birmingham are a nothing club of no more matter to us than Coventry. I think we give them more attention than they deserve. Oh, and McLeish isnt a paedophile ( I guess). He is just, to use your analogy, a Sainsbury's manager who has been employed by Tesco in the past. More a Waitrose manager that was employed by Lidl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry'sboots Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I don't see how anyone could possibly argue that we should have got top 4. Not sure what premiership they've been watching if they think it's that easy. Harry did. If I was owner of Villa I'd be thinking, how? Why? Why not me? If I was Villa's owner I'd be livid that my money didnt buy what Spurs got. A Cup final defeat and a couple of sixth placed finishes. Thanks a bloody lot. How about my trips to the San Siro and Bernabau? Sorry, but I genuinely dont get why Villa fans arent more angry with O'Neill. Redknapp inherited a much better team, they were low down because Ramos was awlful. Also spurs are for some reasons a more attractive club than us and have found it easier persuading the right quality to join. Doesn't it tell you something that a lot of villa fans aren't angry with him for not making the top 4? Just true blinded hatred from the odd few like yourself. There isn't a good argument as to why we should have gone from 16th to 4th in 3 seasons. I don't normally agree with BJ10, especially on matters concerning MON, but I will have to here. My disappointment with MON was that, IMO, he had done incredibly well to put together a team and a squad that could challenge the big 4 BUT had then failed to maximise on their potential due to his own weaknesses i.e. inability to use his squad (resting players and subs), constant selection of his favourites and, for me, inflexible tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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