The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Vive_La_Villa]

You look only at the action, hence - the person travelling to Syria or Iraq. Mind you this will make a huge problem when they'll return. For some reason, they never use their knowledge and experience to help the local police...

But I speak of the ideas. If I read that the laws of Shari'a are to become an integral part of the British judicial system - I am deeply disturbed. Not because it's Islam - but because it gives a foothold to a line of thought which sees women as inferior to men. In Britain. This is unbelievable! To add to that, I see a report in the Guardian about Sainsbury (which I assume is a chain of Supermarkets) removing Kosher food just not to get someone angry (not to mention these products are not made in Israel...) or that school teachers don't teach of the holocaust as they are afraid it will offend Muslims (why would it offend anyone?!) - it all comes together to a major change which slowly allows the radical Islam to become dominant. You could see what's going on in France in recent years. If someone here has visited Malmo, Sweden, in recent times - they can also throw in their ideas of the situation. Europe is an advanced and liberal continent, having learned what's good for them over centuries of constant wars and deaths. Now, when peaceful times arrive - the Europeans should keep their progressive ideas alive instead of letting in ideas more fitting to medieval time...

What's the alternative? Piss Muslims off and lose their vote?

I remember once I went in to an Indian restaurant in a predominantly white area and asked the waiter if the meat was halal. He quickly responded yes sir. I got up and walked out. He never saw that coming!

Edited August 23, 2014 by Vive_La_Villa

[Chindie]

I'd be lying if I said I had much interest in the answer, because I can probably guess it regardless, but I wonder if our resident Israeli might be quite so horrified to learn of Jewish law being present in English law?

Because that already is. English law allows civil disputes to be settled by any agreed third party. Lots of orthodox Jews turn to Jewish courts in cases of family and business disputes.

If another tract of people suffering from another religious affliction wish to have their own brand of tinpot religious court, what's the difference?

Both are ultimately subject English law.

I'm not surprised that that is the reaction though. Israel must surely popularise the Islamic bogeyman, or none of them would be lining up to blow apart children or drop experimental munitions on one of the most densely populated regions on earth. And they might have raised an objection at bulldozing the homes of generations of families while they were still sat upstairs.

[Brumerican]

Hey Glamorgan . I find it strange that you ridiculed a Muslim for wanting to keep his cock intact, so he could plough on into to afterlife .

Don't you guys chop of your sons foreskins ( before the kid is old enough to decide ) based solely on the words of an Abrahamic fairytale ?

[Brumerican]

When asked for it - he told that he didn't want his penis to be damaged, so he'll be able to "use" it with the 72 virgins awaiting him up there...

So, you can try and rationalize as much as you want and bring the set of beliefs, but as soon as the 72 virgins come into the equation - this is your sign to leave rational west thinking aside and start getting used to the idea there are parts of the words where people think differently.

Sorry but I just had to quote this. A great example of how religion can make even smart people say retarded shit.

[snowychap]

So we should control people's ideas?

 

If you're disturbed by Sharia law being used in the UK, how do you feel about beth din courts in the UK?

 

We stop murder, we stop violence and we try to stop discrimination and prejudice. We really shouldn't be controlling ideas and selecting which religions can have their own law and which can't.

 

For clarity, that's not me being in favour of sharia. 

 

As far as I know the Sharia thing (as with the Jewish law thing) is to do with civil law and, mostly, binding arbitration.

I may be wrong - I have seen a few tabloid pieces about it being more than that but they would appear to be pieces of fear sparked by the civil (often financial) stuff.

[Glarmorgan]

I'd be lying if I said I had much interest in the answer, because I can probably guess it regardless, but I wonder if our resident Israeli might be quite so horrified to learn of Jewish law being present in English law?

Because that already is. English law allows civil disputes to be settled by any agreed third party. Lots of orthodox Jews turn to Jewish courts in cases of family and business disputes.

If another tract of people suffering from another religious affliction wish to have their own brand of tinpot religious court, what's the difference?

Both are ultimately subject English law.

I'm not surprised that that is the reaction though. Israel must surely popularise the Islamic bogeyman, or none of them would be lining up to blow apart children or drop experimental munitions on one of the most densely populated regions on earth. And they might have raised an objection at bulldozing the homes of generations of families while they were still sat upstairs.

 

Dear Chindie - I am not against Islam or Islamic rules. Hell, the Muslim minority in Israel enjoys his religious freedom, including their own courts which can deal with certain aspects of their lives, just as there are Jewish ones. As I repeatedly said here - you will not find one Muslim, throughout the middle east, who enjoys democracy, religious freedom and civil rights as the Arabs in Israel. Words are cheap - just make sure you back them up with facts.

 

Still, the nice Brit who chopped the head of the American journalist is not the problem of Israel (yet) and is not a product or byproduct of any Israeli policy or education system. It seems it is an outcome of something which is going on in the UK and no matter how hard you'll try to say "Israel" - this will not change.

 

The radical Islam, who brought death for hundreds of thousands throughout the world is not Israel's fault and despite your need to hit back at Israel - you are way of your mark. There are no religious leaders in Israel calling for young Muslims to make their way to Iraq and Syria. This is why there are hardly any Israeli Arabs fighting over there, unlike UK Muslims who make up 1/4 of the foreigners joining ISIS. 

 

BTW, you should check the death toll of children in Iraq and Kosovo. Israel did not take part in these wars. UK did. 

[bickster]

Yeah I know about the Daily Mail, royalty and Moseley and all that lot of perverts and mental defectives, I was more meaning there must have been people that would have travelled and actively fought and killed for the fascists. Blood on their hands not just on their cheque books and dinner party napkins.

 

Just trying to get a little bit of historical perspective and not just panic because the newspaper headline says to panic.

Only a handful apparently but there were 700 Irish Fascists that formed a brigade of their own

[Glarmorgan]

Hey Glamorgan . I find it strange that you ridiculed a Muslim for wanting to keep his cock intact, so he could plough on into to afterlife .

Don't you guys chop of your sons foreskins ( before the kid is old enough to decide ) based solely on the words of an Abrahamic fairytale ?

 

Despite your cynicism (which is understandable) I will try to reply seriously.

 

True - circumcision came as a result of Abraham and Itzhak. Israel, modern Israel, is a mainly a secular country. Beside the fact that circumcision is not a must, the reasons for many of the circumcisions have drastically changed throughout the years. I am secular. I eat non-Kosher, I do not "keep" the Sabbath and so on. Neither are most of my friends. My son was circumcised mainly for health reason and not to mark my bondage with God. I did this in an operation-like environment, it was done by a doctor (and not a Mohel), with anesthetics. 

 

And to make things right - I did not ridicule the one with the padded cock. This is his belief. I brought this as an example for the lack of "western world" logic in this dialog. First - because you can't explain the downside of what he's doing. He wants to die. Second - when you go to heaven and so  - you don't do this with this body. Your "soul" ascends over there and it is the one enjoying those 72 virgins. So...  and third - when you blow up a 10kg vest of explosives - padding your cock won't help much. If you think it makes a difference - don't you think those virgins will have a problem with your shattered body, rather than your fully intact cock?

Edited August 23, 2014 by Glarmorgan

[snowychap]

Dear Chindie - I am not against Islam or Islamic rules. Hell, the Muslim minority in Israel enjoys his religious freedom, including their own courts which can deal with certain aspects of their lives, just as there are Jewish ones. As I repeatedly said here - you will not find one Muslim, throughout the middle east, who enjoys democracy, religious freedom and civil rights as the Arabs in Israel. Words are cheap - just make sure you back them up with facts.

 

Still, the nice Brit who chopped the head of the American journalist is not the problem of Israel (yet) and is not a product or byproduct of any Israeli policy or education system. It seems it is an outcome of something which is going on in the UK and no matter how hard you'll try to say "Israel" - this will not change.

 

The radical Islam, who brought death for hundreds of thousands throughout the world is not Israel's fault and despite your need to hit back at Israel - you are way of your mark. There are no religious leaders in Israel calling for young Muslims to make their way to Iraq and Syria. This is why there are hardly any Israeli Arabs fighting over there, unlike UK Muslims who make up 1/4 of the foreigners joining ISIS. 

 

BTW, you should check the death toll of children in Iraq and Kosovo. Israel did not take part in these wars. UK did.

You had to have begun reading that post with one thing in mind to come out with that.

There are a number of points (chief amongst them being how you chose to make your point about Sharia becoming 'integral' amongst the British justice system as a negative but the fact that 'the muslim minority enjoys...their own courts...' in Israel as an indicator of how liberal both you and Israel are) which suggest that you've failed to read what he posted and also have taken it as an opportunity to repeat the line from which you have rarley wavered in this thread and, perhaps, that, all along, it's about making a particular point from a particular angle.

[chrisp65]

 

Yeah I know about the Daily Mail, royalty and Moseley and all that lot of perverts and mental defectives, I was more meaning there must have been people that would have travelled and actively fought and killed for the fascists. Blood on their hands not just on their cheque books and dinner party napkins.

 

Just trying to get a little bit of historical perspective and not just panic because the newspaper headline says to panic.

Only a handful apparently but there were 700 Irish Fascists that formed a brigade of their own

 

 

Cheers, fascinating, when I've got a bit of time I'm going to have a little research dabble into this area.

 

I was in the Museum of London last weekend and they had an interesting little section around WWII. It included pamphlets from a group called the green shirts, I'd never even heard of them so they're on my research list.

 

A couple of evenings ago there was a tv programme about the secret deals done between nazi Germany and Welsh nationalists. The presumption on the part of Hitler being that they were willing to be a fifth column in return for the promise of independence after the invasion. Turned out it was all a set up and they were double agents finding out what Germany planned and how many other contacts they had in the UK.

 

I think I'm supposed to be in the history thread......

[Chindie]

Haha. Is horrified at Islamic law in the UK, tells us how great Israel is by stating Islamic courts exist in Israel.

Doublethink.

[Brumerican]

 

Hey Glamorgan . I find it strange that you ridiculed a Muslim for wanting to keep his cock intact, so he could plough on into to afterlife .

Don't you guys chop of your sons foreskins ( before the kid is old enough to decide ) based solely on the words of an Abrahamic fairytale ?

 

Despite your cynicism (which is understandable) I will try to reply seriously.

 

True - circumcision came as a result of Abraham and Itzhak. Israel, modern Israel, is a mainly a secular country. Beside the fact that circumcision is not a must, the reasons for many of the circumcisions have drastically changed throughout the years. I am secular. I eat non-Kosher, I do not "keep" the Sabbath and so on. Neither are most of my friends. My son was circumcised mainly for health reason and not to mark my bondage with God. I did this in an operation-like environment, it was done by a doctor (and not a Mohel), with anesthetics. 

 

And to make things right - I did not ridicule the one with the padded cock. This is his belief. I brought this as an example for the lack of "western world" logic in this dialog. First - because you can't explain the downside of what he's doing. He wants to die. Second - when you go to heaven and so  - you don't do this with this body. Your "soul" ascends over there and it is the one enjoying those 72 virgins. So...  and third - when you blow up a 10kg vest of explosives - padding your cock won't help much. If you think it makes a difference - don't you think those virgins will have a problem with your shattered body, rather than your fully intact cock?

 

 

 

You are doing it again dude. You are ridiculing the 72 virgins stuff when you are just as guilty of Religion based stupidity.  Cock chopping is just one example . Would you like some more ?

[Glarmorgan]

Nope. I was lost in translation as the term "court" has two levels in Israel.

 

I'll try to explain:

 

When it comes to the court of law, hence - judges and trials and lawyers and defendants and so on - there is only one path - the Israeli Judicial system. The judges, whether Jewish or Muslim, who attend the court of law - rule according to the laws of the State of Israel. This, obviously, applies to all sorts of "courts" - court for family matters, court of working relations and so on. You get the idea. The laws, as in any democratic country, come from the Knesset - the Israeli Parliament, where you'll find Jewish, Christian, Muslim and secular legislators.

 

The place of the "religious" court comes in issues such as marriage or divorce, or specific religious issues. For instance - a Muslim will not wed his wife with a Rabbi. He will most probably prefer to a  Muslim "clerk", therefore the entire marriage process (from registration to the ceremony) is under the "responsibility" of the Muslim court. The same applies for the Jewish court.  Another example - when it comes to decide whether a person is Jewish (if in doubt). This matter is being dealt by the Jewish court who has the authority to investigate. The same applies for the Muslim court, in case of a dispute. In general - other than my marriage to my lovely wife, I have never used the services of the Jewish court and hopefully - I will not have to for many years (as they are in charge of burial, which I hope neither my loved ones or I will need anytime soon...). 

 

Both courts are subjected to the laws of the State of Israel and to its federal Judicial system. The "regular" court cannot force the Jewish one to accept a person as a Jew, but he can order the Jewish court to have another look at things, with a different set of the Rabbis and so on, or, if you'd like - the high court can ask or hint the Parliament that they (the judges) cannot attend to a matter under the current set of laws, and unless a law will be legislated - they will have to set a verdict according to other criteria.

 

In any case - neither of these "mini" courts are above the state law. If Israel prohibits bigamy, a Muslim court cannot approve one, and so on.

 

Hope things are clearer now.

[Glarmorgan]

 

 

Hey Glamorgan . I find it strange that you ridiculed a Muslim for wanting to keep his cock intact, so he could plough on into to afterlife .

Don't you guys chop of your sons foreskins ( before the kid is old enough to decide ) based solely on the words of an Abrahamic fairytale ?

 

Despite your cynicism (which is understandable) I will try to reply seriously.

 

True - circumcision came as a result of Abraham and Itzhak. Israel, modern Israel, is a mainly a secular country. Beside the fact that circumcision is not a must, the reasons for many of the circumcisions have drastically changed throughout the years. I am secular. I eat non-Kosher, I do not "keep" the Sabbath and so on. Neither are most of my friends. My son was circumcised mainly for health reason and not to mark my bondage with God. I did this in an operation-like environment, it was done by a doctor (and not a Mohel), with anesthetics. 

 

And to make things right - I did not ridicule the one with the padded cock. This is his belief. I brought this as an example for the lack of "western world" logic in this dialog. First - because you can't explain the downside of what he's doing. He wants to die. Second - when you go to heaven and so  - you don't do this with this body. Your "soul" ascends over there and it is the one enjoying those 72 virgins. So...  and third - when you blow up a 10kg vest of explosives - padding your cock won't help much. If you think it makes a difference - don't you think those virgins will have a problem with your shattered body, rather than your fully intact cock?

 

 

 

You are doing it again dude. You are ridiculing the 72 virgins stuff when you are just as guilty of Religion based stupidity.  Cock chopping is just one example . Would you like some more ?

 

I ridicule nothing so please, stop accusing me in doing so.

 

There suicide bombers are being thoroughly investigated. Israel tried to understand what drives them to do such thing. Such questions rose. I am not telling you "huh - he's a moron - he thinks of virgins and padded cock and afterlife". Not at all. I say - this is what he believes in - but when you interact with a person who holds such set of beliefs - you cannot use your own perception of life since it is completely different. I don't say it "better" or " worse". I say it is different.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Glarmorgan

[snowychap]

Hope things are clearer now.

Only in as much as it would seem that courts are courts are courts.

What you have described (with lots of layers of subordinate legal practices - assuming that the two parties represented agree to the particular terms and that these terms are not contrary to the ultimate law of the land) is about the same as it is over here with jewish law and islamic law and so on being part of the (civil) judicial system (I may be wrong but that's what it would seem).

The more you explain things, the more your condemnations appear wide of the mark.

[Brumerican]

Glamorgan ... You are saying that you can't reason with people who believe in religious bullshit yet your entire nation is built upon religious bullshit .

 

Can you see it yet ?

[Glarmorgan]

Glamorgan ... You are saying that you can't reason with people who believe in religious bullshit yet your entire nation is built upon religious bullshit .

 

Can you see it yet ?

Wouldn't it be easier to say you don't know enough about Israel?

 

I am secular. My father is secular and so was his father. Most of my Grandmother's family (of my father's side) were secular. This did not stop the Ukrainians from slaying them as soon as Hitler's forces came to town. If I will travel through some parts of Paris - I will be assaulted for being a Jew. That simple - they don't know who I am, what are my beliefs, my history, my deeds. They'll know I am a Jew and this will be more than enough for them. The fact that I am not religious interests no one when it comes picking on someone and history showed that over and over again. Most of the Jews in Germany before WWII were secular. Many refused to be identified as Jews and replaced this identity with "German". This, as you probably know, made no difference when they were brought up on the trains. After Israel was declared - hundreds of thousands of Jews in neighboring Arab countries were assaulted. Many of them had to flee with nothing but the clothes on their skins, by their neighbors for many years. They were not Israelis. They were Iraqis, they were Syrians. But when the time came - it made no difference - they were Jews and as such - they were assaulted and in many cases - butchered.

 

David Ben Gurion, the first prime minister, was not religious. Neither was Haim Weitzman, the first president. We have never ever had a religious prime minister. Israel is not a religious country in the term Saudi Arabia is. I can go to a restaurant and order bacon. I can take the bacon and walk freely on the street, drinking milk at the same time. Nothing stops me from doing so.

 

When I am asked - and I was asked here some pages back - why should one live in a country under constant threat, I answer - because this is the only place in the world that I can I can be a person before being "a Jew". Look at the demonstration in France, or in Belgium or Turkey. Look at what the demonstrators cry for. They do not aim all their cries at Israel. They aim it at "The Jews". History taught me, and the present aided this cause, that when the time comes - no one will stand by me, to defend me from the ones attacking me for being a Jew. This is for me the reason for the state of Israel. Not the Messiah or the 3rd temple dropping from the sky.

 

If you want to go even further - the inception of Israel is extremely bad from the religious point of view. The most religious Jews believe the creation of Israel holds back the arrival of the Messiah. That is why you'll see vast communities of religious Jews in the US. This is why you'll see "Neturey Karta" flying to Iran to call for the extermination of the Jewish state. This is why you'll see congregations in Jerusalem whose people want nothing with the Jewish state, telling the federal government - we need nothing, we give nothing.

[bickster]

What is your definition of secular Glarmorgan?

See how can people know you're a Jew if your secular? There is no Jewish race, to be a Jew (or follower of any other cult) is a matter of personal choice it carries no racial profile.

So do you follow the jewish religion? Its not clear

[Brumerican]

Glamorgan . Do you really need a middle aged brummy to telly you stories about the land of milk and honey or would you like to save time and admit you are a complete and utter hypocrite right now ? 

 

Israel exists because the Israelites believed their imaginary deity promised it to them . All the persecution sob stories and tales of how secular some of you guys are does not change that fact . 

 

Your flag is a star of David FFS . You know which David I mean . The one from the story book that promised you guys a nice a bit of land .

 

Your nation is built upon religious bullshit . There is no denying that . 

So how can you have the audacity to say that you can't reason with the Muslims who act terribly because of the slightly different religious bullshit that they believe in ? 

 

How the hell can you not see how utterly mental that is? 

[Glarmorgan]

What is your definition of secular Glarmorgan?

See how can people know you're a Jew if your secular? There is no Jewish race, to be a Jew (or follower of any other cult) is a matter of personal choice it carries no racial profile.

So do you follow the jewish religion? Its not clear

 

I do not go by the Jewish "rules". I eat non-Kosher food, I don't go the the synagogue, I don't read the bible, I don't pray, I don't go with "Jewish clothing", I have no Yarmulke, I don't "keep the Sabbath" - I ride my car, I turn on electricity and so on. I think this gives you the general idea. I am circumcised. visit youporn for evidence

 

I follow Jewish religion in relation to the culture and respect the past. I go with my father and brothers to the synagogue on Yom Kippur. We do not fest afterwards, though. In annual memorial day for deceased family members - we do it the Jewish way (saying "Kadish", reading a couple of lines from Psalms and so on). We conduct the Seder at Passover. This covers a lot.

 

Since my origins are European - I guess that if I'll walk by, you will not be able to identify me as a Jew or even as an Israeli.

 

So how will people know? To go a long way back - the Nazis knew. as their allies. My surname might imply this (despite not being "Goldstein" or "Cohen"). The name of my father or my grandparents will imply. If checked - it won't be a problem to find out.

If you're talking about current times - maybe if I'll got in those regions of France I won't be assaulted as they might not see my "Jewishness", but the fact remains - they hate me because this "Jew" tag. In other words - if I'll go there I'll have to make sure that there are no Hebrew letters on my clothes or my bag, I will not be able to speak in Hebrew and in General - I will have to think twice of anything I do.