lapal_fan Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Beside - the tanks guarding the exit holes are manned by human beings. So there are tanks sat outside the exits of the tunnels? No... tanks are usually positioned in defensive stands around Gaza. As you must recall - I explicitly wrote that not all exit holes were known (Hamas managed to sneak a couple of squads through them during the last weeks) and all in all - even if the IDF was to go with your "tank next to exit hole" solution - this was not practical due to the human being stationed in this tank. Come on - give me some slack here. I am trying to hold this in English and even if I glitch every once in a while - try to overlook it and get the general idea instead. Beside - tank warfare cannot work like this. The entire combat perception of the tank forces if Israel is mainly built on movement and accuracy. Not on static defensive positions. What are the practical difficulties of just filling the exit holes with say expanding foam and concrete? Since these tunnels are very long,with a lot of junctions, even if we'll seal the exit hole - nothing can prevent them from going back a couple of yards, making a left or right turn and dig another exit hole. In addition - on several occasions, exit holes were revealed only after the explosion of the tunnel. Have you thought about killing all of them? That might work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 What are the practical difficulties of just filling the exit holes with say expanding foam and concrete?I'd imagine that Israeli builders are just as unreliable as anywhere else.The IDF would book them for a bit of foam and concrete work and they'd turn up a week late with some lame excuse about having to build a bloody great wall somewhere. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Beside - the tanks guarding the exit holes are manned by human beings. So there are tanks sat outside the exits of the tunnels? No... tanks are usually positioned in defensive stands around Gaza. As you must recall - I explicitly wrote that not all exit holes were known (Hamas managed to sneak a couple of squads through them during the last weeks) and all in all - even if the IDF was to go with your "tank next to exit hole" solution - this was not practical due to the human being stationed in this tank. Come on - give me some slack here. I am trying to hold this in English and even if I glitch every once in a while - try to overlook it and get the general idea instead. Beside - tank warfare cannot work like this. The entire combat perception of the tank forces if Israel is mainly built on movement and accuracy. Not on static defensive positions. What are the practical difficulties of just filling the exit holes with say expanding foam and concrete? Since these tunnels are very long,with a lot of junctions, even if we'll seal the exit hole - nothing can prevent them from going back a couple of yards, making a left or right turn and dig another exit hole. In addition - on several occasions, exit holes were revealed only after the explosion of the tunnel. Have you thought about killing all of them? That might work. That would be an easy solution, true. Somehow, despite such great suggestions, we choose not to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Beside - the tanks guarding the exit holes are manned by human beings. So there are tanks sat outside the exits of the tunnels? No... tanks are usually positioned in defensive stands around Gaza. As you must recall - I explicitly wrote that not all exit holes were known (Hamas managed to sneak a couple of squads through them during the last weeks) and all in all - even if the IDF was to go with your "tank next to exit hole" solution - this was not practical due to the human being stationed in this tank. Come on - give me some slack here. I am trying to hold this in English and even if I glitch every once in a while - try to overlook it and get the general idea instead. Beside - tank warfare cannot work like this. The entire combat perception of the tank forces if Israel is mainly built on movement and accuracy. Not on static defensive positions. What are the practical difficulties of just filling the exit holes with say expanding foam and concrete? Since these tunnels are very long,with a lot of junctions, even if we'll seal the exit hole - nothing can prevent them from going back a couple of yards, making a left or right turn and dig another exit hole. In addition - on several occasions, exit holes were revealed only after the explosion of the tunnel. Have you thought about killing all of them? That might work. That would be an easy solution, true. Somehow, despite such great suggestions, we choose not to do it. Like God yea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Like your extremely strong next door neighbor who has the strength and the knowledge not only to use them offensively, but defensively as well, to protect his house from your puny retaliation attempts. Beside - according to your line of thought, you are playing God on daily basis by not killing everyone around you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Can I ask how so many normal Israeli citizens know so much about the strategy of the Army? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Beside - the tanks guarding the exit holes are manned by human beings. So there are tanks sat outside the exits of the tunnels? No... tanks are usually positioned in defensive stands around Gaza. As you must recall - I explicitly wrote that not all exit holes were known (Hamas managed to sneak a couple of squads through them during the last weeks) and all in all - even if the IDF was to go with your "tank next to exit hole" solution - this was not practical due to the human being stationed in this tank. Come on - give me some slack here. I am trying to hold this in English and even if I glitch every once in a while - try to overlook it and get the general idea instead. Beside - tank warfare cannot work like this. The entire combat perception of the tank forces if Israel is mainly built on movement and accuracy. Not on static defensive positions. What are the practical difficulties of just filling the exit holes with say expanding foam and concrete? Since these tunnels are very long,with a lot of junctions, even if we'll seal the exit hole - nothing can prevent them from going back a couple of yards, making a left or right turn and dig another exit hole. In addition - on several occasions, exit holes were revealed only after the explosion of the tunnel. Okay, I'm just wondering if there are any alternatives to the ordnance, which has proven rather more inaccurate than we are told it is, when we use it ourselves. So, would it be possible to create a network of seismic sensors on the surface to detect subterranean building noise so tunnels might be detected, and then destroyed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Can I ask how so many normal Israeli citizens know so much about the strategy of the Army? Due to Israel position - military service is mandatory at the age of 18. Most Israelis (including Druze and Bedouin) are drafted for 3 years. Some, after 3 years, continue with their service (mostly officers). I, for instance, spent three years in Combat Engineering core during early 90's. Got ready mainly for a was with Syria, but spent some months in the West Bank as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Like your extremely strong next door neighbor who has the strength and the knowledge not only to use them offensively, but defensively as well, to protect his house from your puny retaliation attempts. Beside - according to your line of thought, you are playing God on daily basis by not killing everyone around you. You're showing your aggression again.. Much like your leaders. Unlike calm Europe, and I am very sorry for this - the key for survival in the middle east is to have the strength and to show you are willing to use it when necessary. You can look at Iraq or Syria as the best examples - but the thing that kept Israel safe and sound since 1948 was the fear of its neighbors from the IDF. The Arab nations around us came to realize they cannot beat us when it comes to force. Some chose to path of peace (Egypt and Jordan), some just kept away (Iraq) and some invested in terror groups to attack us from Lebanon (Syria and Iran supporting Hizbulla). This is type of existence you fail to understand. I am not a militant. I am all for the creation of a Palestinian state, but at the same time I fully realize that if we'll show any signs of weakness - groups such as the Hamas or Hizbulla will be more than glad to drive us away. We can argue all day long whether Israel actions in Gaza were justified or not - but Hamas will probably think twice before launching any sort of attack against Israel, whether through rockets or tunnels. Just as Hizbulla are not trigger happy after the bombardment of Beirut 8 years ago. This is how things work here. Unfortunately. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 I'd just move. **** living and bring up a family in an unpredictable war zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 (edited) I'd just move. **** living and bring up a family in an unpredictable war zone. Well, even if I'll ignore patriotism and so, being a Jew in Israel is not easy, but as I see things - being a Jew outside Israel is even worse. Look at the recent demonstrations in Europe, listen to when Arduan is saying. Even yesterday, Jewish kids in Sydney (!!!!) were abused. Look at history - we are not being treated all too well outside. Here I at least have the ability to defend myself and try to control my own destiny. I am not dependent on some leader who think of "the republic" or "the voters". If you wish, I can get all sentimental and remind you of how the allies chose not to bombard Auschwitz during WWII to at least hamper some of the Nazis deeds over there. Israel is here for a reason, you know Edited August 7, 2014 by Glarmorgan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Okay, I'm just wondering if there are any alternatives to the ordnance, which has proven rather more inaccurate than we are told it is, when we use it ourselves. So, would it be possible to create a network of seismic sensors on the surface to detect subterranean building noise so tunnels might be detected, and then destroyed?I am quite positive there is an alternative, and I am sure the financial means will be directed towards achieving this target. As you suggested - the problem is not only to find out that a tunnel is being dug, but the solution should also be able to provide exact location and, if possible, destroy the tunnel itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikantcpell Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 A book about a son to one of the hamas leaders who start working for shin bet instead He explains why he does it and why he thinks there wont be peace in his homeland even if the israelians left. A brilliant read if you want to understand more about Israel/Palestine conflict. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 One thing is clear, Israel lost the propaganda battle and needs to find an alternative to ordnance - especially if they really believe that Hamas deliberately sacrifice their own citizens. Both sides need an alternative way forward, and Hamas, when the international aid starts to pour in, which it will, might consider building bomb-shelters for their citizens, rather than tunnels to continue their war. If they did that we might believe they cared. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 We know here that the propaganda can never be won when dealing with an enemy who uses women and children as human shields. Hamas knows this is the only battlefield they can beat Israel in. I do not represent Israel, but I can tell you that the common thinking here is that Hamas is not an organization we can deal with. This is why I don't think that nothing other than a long term truce can be achieved, as long as Hamas controls Gaza. I will tell you what I really hope - I hope that the finds and materials getting in Gaza will not be directed to tunnels or bomb shelters. I hope it will be directed to reconstruct the destroyed houses, to create a working sewage system and so on and so forth. Hamas invested a fortune in the tunnels and rockets and other means of destruction, while the population in Gaza can't find something to eat. If they'll stop paying attention to Israel and start investing in the welfare of their own people - things will be better for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Do you forget the part Israel have in the fact that the people of Gaza haven't enough food or shelter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Do you forget the part Israel have in the fact that the people of Gaza haven't enough food or shelter? This claim is unfair due to several reasons: 1. Access from Gaza to Israel was allowed as long as The Palestinian Authority was in control of Gaza. As soon as Hamas took over - Israel closed the border. 2. I wish to remind you that Hamas is an entity calling for the extinction of Israel. You don't really expect Israel to have an open border with a sheer enemy, right? 3. Gaza have a shared border with Egypt. Why would Israel allow the Gazans in, when they elect a Hamas for leadership, while Egypt keep their border closed? You should also remember that during this period of time, Egypt was controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood and not a secular regime such as Mubarak's or A Sisi. Still, during this time - the border remained closed. What prevented the Muslim Brotherhood to open the border and help their poor brothers from Gaza? It might have something to do with the refugees camp all around the middle east - they don't really want to solve the Palestinian problem. They want to use it as a tool against Israel. 4. Dozens of trucks enter Gaza strip each day with supplies, entering through Kerem Shalom passage in Israel. It might not be anything that the population want - but its more than any other country send them.... 5. Within the tunnels, built to harm Israelis, sacks of Israeli manufactured cement were found. They used the supplies Israel sent to build tunnels for... hurting Israel. 6. A ship was apprehended some time back, carrying loads of long range missiles and ammunition sent from Iran to Hamas. I am sure some managed to sneak in without the Israeli navy noticing it. And it surprises you Israel does not want shipments to get to Gaza? Some might think Israel is a demon which all its aim it too make life bad for the Palestinians. As if I get up in the morning and think of how to deprive children of their milk supplements just because they live in Rafah. This is preposterous! You keep talking about the dire situation of the population of Gaza and you are 100% right, but instead of pointing the finger at Israel, point it to the Hamas. Just think - the economy of the Palestinians in the West Bank is dependent on the Israeli market. Still, workers are allowed to come to work in Israel and Israeli - Arabs can visit the West Bank quite freely, purchasing goods. How can you explain the difference between Gaza and the West Bank? Israel "hates" only the ones in Gaza? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Interesting post Glarmorgan, and always interesting to hear the views of somebody who lives in the area. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Doesn't he live in Glamorgan? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glarmorgan Posted August 7, 2014 Share Posted August 7, 2014 Doesn't he live in Glamorgan? LOL You can blame "Defender of The Crown" for making me pick this nickname... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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