Bolitics The New Condem Government

[thetrees]

Average factory worker (in my industry) wage there is around EUR3 per hour. Our new minimum wage is around EUR10.20 per hour, so the attraction is clear.

Do they still get to reside, eat, drink, travel and so on in Poland?Edit: I don't know how the wrong data got in to the 'quote' details first time around.

On the EUR3 an hour, yes.Our minimum wage is based upon them being in the UK.The 'proposal' that was mentioned to me was based upon them being in the UK on Polish contracts, so earning more than in Poland, but much less than minimum wage here.The scary thing is that this isn't something that the guy dreamed up, clearly it is already going on here.

You missed my point (which may have been too facetiously put) which was a criticism of the comparison between the two wage levels without the requisite comparison in the cost of living.

Sorry, yes, your point went way south, if indeed it was a point.

Of course people working for the EUR3 per hour have a cheaper cost of living, but the attraction of the EUR10.20 minimum wage here is that they can live on that here and send money home.

In Polish factories that I deal with there are Ukrainians working at Polish rates and sending money home.

[snowychap]

Sorry, yes, your point went way south, if indeed it was a point.

Of course it's a point.

It puts the relative wages in to context. Context, one would have thought, that would add more depth to the discussion.

Edited April 18, 2014 by snowychap

[blandy]

I just had a Polish guy come round and replace some tiles on the roof. He was bloody brilliant. charged a fair price, worked hard and was skilled and quick with it.

Compared to previous roofers, he was the equal best with an old guy who's long since retired.

 

The tiny anecdotal point being that he's here doing good work, contributing to society and all the rest of that stuff. I don't know if he sends the money home, spends it on beer, or whatever. It doesn't matter. I doubt that he's preventing anyone else from being a roofer. There's enough work to go round in that area.

[thetrees]

Sorry, yes, your point went way south, if indeed it was a point.

Of course it's a point.It puts the relative wages in to context. Context, one would have thought, that would add more depth to the discussion.

Maybe we are at cross purposes.

Earlier in the discussion it was suggested by a third party that an increase in the minimum wage by £1 would result in more 'home' workers taking the jobs. My point, although perhaps not clearly made, is that if you raise the minimum wage from equivalent EUR10.20 to equivalent EUR11.40, then surely it will tempt eastern European workers even more.

History dictates that society has an 'underclass'. Years ago it was the Irish, replaced by 'West Indians' and then Asians. The new 'underclass' are the eastern Europeans.

Just to be clear, for 'underclass' read the national/ethnic group that are prepared to work for the lowest pay in any given society.

[Kingfisher]

Remember when they tried to sell off your supposedly anonymous medical records? Yeah that's right, all the info was traceable back to you.

Someone somewhere may have had a good old gawp at your most sensitive, personal and private of details thanks to your government **** it up for you yet again.

Well guess what, they're at it again. Government want to sell your tax records now.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/18/hmrc-to-sell-taxpayers-data

Do you trust them? I don't.

[blandy]

Earlier in the discussion it was suggested by a third party that an increase in the minimum wage by £1 would result in more 'home' workers taking the jobs. My point, although perhaps not clearly made, is that if you raise the minimum wage from equivalent EUR10.20 to equivalent EUR11.40, then surely it will tempt eastern European workers even more....

maybe I'm wrong but that original suggestion seems like skewing of the original point (whatever it was ). It hints that "yer actual British worker won't get out of bed for 10 euro an hour, whereas these sausage rolls god bless 'em, they will". And "if you up the rate to 11, then the Brit will finally shift his lazy arse". That's just stereotyping at its worst.

Your reply, seems logical ,but for me is also on a different tack, not in reasoning, but in outlook. Surely the whole thing is or should be about paying people at a level where they can keep themselves fed, clothed, warm and have at least a reasonable level of comfort and respectable living. It's not about attracting or not attracting Poles and Bulgarians. An argument not to put up the min wage because too many immigrants would come here is just wrong on a moral level. Several moral levels actually. You're not saying that, i accept, but the comment you made is one that could be made by people more concerned with stopping immigration as a principle, than with treating everyone decently.

[MakemineVanilla]

I thought the original argument was that if the minimum wage was raised jobs would disappear, because at some point some jobs would cease to add enough value to justify employing someone.

 

This is the basis for the Friedman/Tory objection to the MW.

 

So if the jobs disappear then there are no jobs for your jam-rolls to do and so they won't come - and removes the draw for foreign low-skilled workers.

 

Some would say that low wages which need to be topped up by benefits, amount to a subsidy to unviable businesses, and those jobs are better not existing.

[Risso]

Remember when they tried to sell off your supposedly anonymous medical records? Yeah that's right, all the info was traceable back to you.

Someone somewhere may have had a good old gawp at your most sensitive, personal and private of details thanks to your government **** it up for you yet again.

Well guess what, they're at it again. Government want to sell your tax records now.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/18/hmrc-to-sell-taxpayers-data

Do you trust them? I don't.

 

Nope.  This would be completely and utterly unacceptable.

[thetrees]

Earlier in the discussion it was suggested by a third party that an increase in the minimum wage by £1 would result in more 'home' workers taking the jobs. My point, although perhaps not clearly made, is that if you raise the minimum wage from equivalent EUR10.20 to equivalent EUR11.40, then surely it will tempt eastern European workers even more....

maybe I'm wrong but that original suggestion seems like skewing of the original point (whatever it was ). It hints that "yer actual British worker won't get out of bed for 10 euro an hour, whereas these sausage rolls god bless 'em, they will". And "if you up the rate to 11, then the Brit will finally shift his lazy arse". That's just stereotyping at its worst.

Your reply, seems logical ,but for me is also on a different tack, not in reasoning, but in outlook. Surely the whole thing is or should be about paying people at a level where they can keep themselves fed, clothed, warm and have at least a reasonable level of comfort and respectable living. It's not about attracting or not attracting Poles and Bulgarians. An argument not to put up the min wage because too many immigrants would come here is just wrong on a moral level. Several moral levels actually. You're not saying that, i accept, but the comment you made is one that could be made by people more concerned with stopping immigration as a principle, than with treating everyone decently.

I find it interesting that this particular minimum wage discussion has its roots in a discussion about food banks.

At the introduction of MW I commented on here that the danger was that it would become 'the' wage, which it largely has.

Unlike some of the one eyed radicals that we see on this thread, I complimented the then (disliked by me) Labour government for introducing something that is morally correct, but was in danger of exploitation, which I think that it has been.

But if the existence of food banks are, in part, attributable to the minimum wage being 'too low', then why all the guff and condemnation of these 'nasty Tories', when on this basis, the existence of food banks is attributable to both Labour and coalition governments?

On the point of raising the minimum wage, I have no view. In my small world no one that I am responsible for is paid minimum wage, although I may be about to 'exploit' it in order to create an extra position and give a young person an opportunity.

With regard to immigrant workers, in my primary industry, if they don't come, we would have a serious problem. I visit production facilities all over the world. In the UK and Western Europe, factories are staffed almost entirely with eastern Europeans. In South Europe, a lot of north and west Africans. In the US, Mexicans. The bottom line is that all of our economies need immigrant workers, unless we want things to grind to a halt.

[blandy]

I think the "guff" about foodbank usage rocketing is more to do with the massive increase in people using them being co-incident with benefit cuts (rather than min. wage levels). Something this Gov't has done has caused it. To an extent by taking a lot of people out of paying tax, they've helped people on lower wages. It's more the unemployed (for whatever reason) who seem to be the main users, though low paid people with high housing costs may also fall into that group.

[Kingfisher]

I see the Mail have run a story attacking food banks this Easter Sunday, or as they prefer to call it, ze führer's birthday.

[Kingfisher]

It's Liz number two's birthday tomorrow as well. So no doubt the nazi mail will be attacking charity today and celebrating obscene wealth tomorrow.

[Kingfisher]

The long term unemployed must sign on every day now. Another out of touch with reality policy from the posh rich rocket polishers. What if the bus fare to the jobcentre costs £5? Monday to Friday that's £25 quid of your £70? quid JSA gone on bus fares.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jobless-mustsign-on-every-day-government-to-dock-money-from-longterm-unemployed-if-they-do-not-comply-9294586.html

Edited April 28, 2014 by Kingfisher

[Xann]

Royal Mail preferred investors revealed.

 

You can see why they didn't want to tell anyone, until their hand was forced.

[Kingfisher]

Royal Mail preferred investors revealed.

You can see why they didn't want to tell anyone, until their hand was forced.

All so predictable. Give a bunch of crooks the keys to your house don't expect your valuables to be there when you get home.

[mockingbird_franklin]

 

Royal Mail preferred investors revealed.

You can see why they didn't want to tell anyone, until their hand was forced.

All so predictable. Give a bunch of crooks the keys to your house don't expect your valuables to be there when you get home.

 

But that nice Mr Cameron has been telling us what a success the floatation was for the Country so it must be true,

 

The contents of this post was bought to you by the Ah but Labour collective

[Risso]

Royal Mail preferred investors revealed.

 

You can see why they didn't want to tell anyone, until their hand was forced.

 

We had all this weeks ago.  Big investment firms in investing shocker.  You do realise that it's not their own money they spend?

[Kingfisher]

Vested interests have made financial gain at our expense out of sweetheart dealings with government shocker.

Bottom line. The Royal Mail should still be in our hands making us money.

[chrisp65]

 

Royal Mail preferred investors revealed.

 

You can see why they didn't want to tell anyone, until their hand was forced.

 

 You do realise that it's not their own money they spend?

 

 

yes we realise that

 

it was ours

[Xann]

 You do realise that it's not their own money they spend?

 

Yes

 

I'm sure everyone involved in this deal is going to waive all fees and performance linked bonuses, now that they know we're unhappy.