Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #5 - Leaders Debate Two

[Jon]

By swerving a comprehensive spending review Labour have managed to fool an awful lot of people into concentrating on comparatively trivial issues - and let all the big parties off the hook.

very true.

This Election campaign has, thus far, ignored this fella.

[drat01]

I don't even like Cameron, he's a smug and shallow git. However that has nothing at all to do with what I was talking about, which was waking up to the actual state of the national finances, as you well know. By swerving a comprehensive spending review Labour have managed to fool an awful lot of people into concentrating on comparatively trivial issues - and let all the big parties off the hook.

I think tomorrow night will be a real eye opener for those who can watch it.

Jon - you may have missed it but there were a few articles yesterday about ALL of the parties failing to talk about policy and issue - and the worst culprit may not come as a surprise in it being the Tory party.

Tomorrow night more people will be interested in Liverpool on TV and Corry I suspect. If you are expecting answers then you are in for a disappointment. The Pop-idol auditions are more about how your hair looks and how you look at the camera.

[kidlewis]

Jon again and again you trot out the line about Greeces problems in somehow being the same as the challenges the UK faces. Even that article you quote does not say anything so silly.

you silly billy Jon.

we all know the UK is invulnerable to the IMF stepping in, just because all the statistics point to us being in a very similar situation, Labour are relying on the growth of the country bringing us out of recession.

I'd go as far to say that if that volcano had erupted for say an entire month and no flights could leave, we'd be pretty screwed right now.

Also Drat, in that monster list of points for a great Labour government, you do know that some of those are going to have to be cut even if they get into power don't you? otherwise there is nowhere really for them to cut spending, because they are saying at the moment they are saying they will protect everything and the tories won't and they will just up taxes again.

If they keep spending the same or increase it and just tax us more, and then do it again when it doesn't make that much of a difference, and then again, our country will be about as competitive as zimbabwe when it comes to attracting business.

[drat01]

KL - what the hell are you talking about (again)? - volcanoes / flights?

That list, as you well know, what cut and pasted to show Levi that this was in no way a further right wing Gvmt than any of the past 40 years. shame that you have chosen to ignore that.

And please using Zimbabwe? Get real - by the way you know about Mugabe likes Dave?? .............. no relevance but as your posts seems so random I thought I may as well join that game

[PauloBarnesi]

Dem said Labour had failed - I said they hadn't failed - I did a cut and paste from Labours website on what they are saying were good achievements - this is now silly on VT its about what will happen based on opinion. None of us know what will happen in the world tomorrow let alone the next 5 years. All you can do is base an opinion on what you think, what you feel will be best and what you have experienced before.

Me I have seen and suffered under a Tory regime that has a striking resemblance to the one proposed by Cameron. That alone leads me to think that they will be bad for a great many in this country. I know others will have different views and so be it, but if they do get in don't say you were not warned

I haven’t suffered under Labour; so why would I want them out? I just think they have had a decent time at the crease, and many many things that they say they would do, they haven’t. And many of the things they accused others of doing they have done themselves (how sleazy are they?). I think most people are disillusioned with them. I think most people don’t trust Cameron. People just want a change; you can’t blame them, or are do you really have faith in the government?

[drat01]

Paul - I really don't have an issue with you feeling that way. The point is a simple one - the Tory party that is standing today is showing every sign of being a clone of that of Thatchers. As said I had the great misfortune of living under that regime and saw and still see today how it can impact badly on a great many of the UK public.

It all comes down to the criteria you chose for voting and for me there is only one way that is pointing, hence my choice.

Maybe a radical change that PR would bring is the answer?

[wiganvillain]

‘Greece infection’ spreads as stricken nation’s debt is rated junk

Greece plunged deeper into financial turmoil last night after its government bonds were rated as junk by financial markets. The Portuguese government debt also took a hammering after panic spread that a Mediterranean virus of insolvency and bad debts would infect the rest of Europe.

Doubts are being openly expressed that a €30 billion (£26 billion) rescue package supported by Greece’s eurozone partners will be enough to tide the country over.

Norbert Barthle, a budget spokesman for Germany’s ruling party, made the financial mayhem worse yesterday when he said that banks holding Greek bonds might need to accept less than full repayment.

“Whoever bought Greek bonds wouldn’t get 100 per cent of their value but, say, only 80, 90 or 70 per cent — it depends,” he said.

The decision by the leading credit rating agency Standard & Poor’s to cut Greek debt to junk and reduce the sovereign rating for Portugal sent investors scurrying to the safer havens of UK gilts, German bunds and US Treasury bills.

The threat of a “haircut” for investors in eurozone bonds caused stock markets to fall across the world.

The euro continued its slide against the dollar but steadied after its fall against sterling on Monday. The London share market dropped 2.61 per cent, or 150 points, to 5603.52 and the Dow Jones industrial average was off 212 points at 10,992. Markets in Frankfurt and Paris also plunged.

The financial turmoil began on Monday when bond investors hammered Greece, forcing up the cost of short-term borrowing for the debt-strapped nation to 14 per cent.

Eurozone leaders have called an emergency summit on May 10 in the hope of approving a rescue package. Last night it was reported that the International Monetary Fund was prepared to put in another €10 billion.

Greece needs to repay €8.5 billion of maturing bonds on May 19. George Papaconstantinou, the Greek Finance Minister, said yesterday that the country could no longer afford to borrow.

Greece faces a formidable obstacle to rescue cash. Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, has promised to join the rescue only if Athens makes budget cuts lasting several years.

German public opinion, however, is set against the rescue package, of which Germany would pay €8.5 billion. “People in Germany ... worry that we will have to pay for a long time for Greece,” Klaus Abberger, an economist at the German Ifo Institute, said.

A temporary exit from the eurozone was mooted as a solution by the German Free Democratic Party, the liberal coalition partners of Ms Merkel’s Christian Democrats. This could offer Greece a partial reprieve if a devalued currency boosted the Greek economy and helped to avoid mass unemployment, Ben May, an economist at Capital Economics, said.

He added: “Exiting the euro temporarily is not going to solve all their problems. They need to make structural adjustments that ensure competitiveness isn’t lost when they rejoin.”

Are you watching, Brown lovers?

Massive deficits and policies of unsustainable public spending are to blame for this and Greece is now in deep trouble with Portugal possibly heading for the rocks too.

The canary has fallen off it's perch but will the British people and politicians start waking up to the issues that our election is really about?

All of these so called entitlements that Labour have brought in (to buy off a large chunk of the electorate) are going to have to be reviewed, even if they themselves were to get back in. The welfare state is going to get battered, whoever is in charge post May 6th.

Sorry Jon, but the above part of the artice you posted seems to me to negate the purpose of the post.

I'm no supporter of Gordo but when we challenge somethin we need to get our ducks in a row please

[PauloBarnesi]

The point is a simple one - the Tory party that is standing today is showing every sign of being a clone of that of Thatchers.

I can understand that; Thatcher was a very divisive figure. But the thing I would observe is that a large number of people did well under her, and actually people are nostalgic for her. The most disastrous Labour poster was the one showing Cameron as Gene Hunt; they thought people would think going back to the 80s was a bad thing. Suddenly they made Cameron look “cool” and for a large number of people living in the 80s had a great time. Alot of the people who voted Labour in 97, would have voted Thatcher in 79, 83, 87. They will be I think disillusioned now with Labour, and voting Tory will be “acceptable”.

Labour need to get the house in order, which I just don’t believe they have and I think for the good of the electoral system, the good of the country they need to be thrown out of government. I think sometimes you just have to let someone else take the tiller. If Labour had got rid of Brown, I think people would have looked more kindly on them; look at what happened when Thatcher was dumped, and Major came in.

[kidlewis]

KL - what the hell are you talking about (again)? - volcanoes / flights?

not random at all, Labour are relying on this current slow increase in growth continuing without a single blip in order to get us out of recession, it's why they are constantly battering the tories that they will wreck the recovery. Do they not know that if that volcano had erupted for a month and stopped all flights in and out of the UK for that length of time then it would cause a serious issue in terms of the economy for the country?

Labour relying on NOTHING de-railing this very slow recovery, if anything comes along that is out of their control, then we are in quite a bit of trouble.

so not random, completely relevant.

and I did choose to ignore that you pasted it there for Levi, because I am highlighting that in that list are some pretty cracp ideas, that are a waste of money, and some statistics that look great, but again pretty pointless statements.

[Jon]

look at what happened when Thatcher was dumped, and Major came in.

everything turned grey?

[PauloBarnesi]

look at what happened when Thatcher was dumped, and Major came in.

everything turned grey?

But people voted for him? Was it because he was good, or Kinnock was bad. I think we know it was probably people didn’t take to Kinnock. I think the English as a whole are rather sceptical of the PM coming from Scotland or Wales. Brown might be acceptable as chancellor, but I think less so as PM, especially with his manner that comes across as a minister from the Kirk

[Awol]

Sorry Jon, but the above part of the artice you posted seems to me to negate the purpose of the post.

I'm no supporter of Gordo but when we challenge somethin we need to get our ducks in a row please

The operative word being a "Safer" haven. Greek Soveriegn debt has just been junked so by definition the UK gilt market is currently a safer option. If the markets and credit rating agencies lose confidence in our ability to cut the deficit and rein in public spending post election (if for example there is no clear result and extended haggling), then we may find ourselves in serious trouble.

My original comments were intended to highlight the potential dangers we face down the road if the politicos don't get our own house in order pretty quickly following May 6th.

[Richard]

So let me get this right, Labour have only done good things in the last 13 years and everything that is bad about today is due to a party that was elected 31 years ago and Labour have not had enough time , or a big majority in parliament , in the last 13 years to put everything to how it should be?

Riiiiggghhtt!

[snowychap]

I'd go as far to say that if that volcano had erupted for say an entire month and no flights could leave, we'd be pretty screwed right now.

The UK wouldn't have been the only ones.

[Jon]

So let me get this right, Labour have only done good things in the last 13 years and everything that is bad about today is due to a party that was elected 31 years ago and Labour have not had enough time , or a big majority in parliament , in the last 13 years to put everything to how it should be?

Riiiiggghhtt!

who has said that Trickie?

IMO, they have done some good things, some not so good things, and some things they should have done, they haven't done at all.

Which is why i won't be voting for them, in the main.

[snowychap]

If the markets and credit rating agencies lose confidence in our ability to cut the deficit and rein in public spending post election (if for example there is no clear result and extended haggling), then we may find ourselves in serious trouble.

If X and Y then maybe Z.

These things are possibles and maybe even just probables but they aren't the cast iron certainties that are being suggested.

When Ken Clarke was making his IMF comment, he said much the same as you but that was not how it was reported.

It was reported as a hung parliament will lead to the IMF having to step in.

He didn't say that, he said (like you) if there isn't a working majority returned and the market believe that we can't tackle our debt problems then the IMF would have to do it for us.

The important part of that is the market believes.... That would be the condition which may send the UK to the IMF.

Yes, Clarke was trying to imply that a hung parliament would necessarily lead to that market situation but he carefully avoided saying that so that he could have a get out if a hung parliament does actually occur.

One might also say, along the lines of what Clarke said: if the Tory party gets returned with a working majority and their intended public sector cuts send us back into recession and the markets believe that, as a result of a return to recession, those cuts might be sufficiently counterproductive regarding tackling our debt problems then the IMF would have to do it for us.

One might also say: if the Labour party get returned with a working majority and they continue to believe that reinflating the bubble is going to sort out our debt problems and this causes the markets to believe that we can't sort out our debt problems then the IMF would have to do it for us.

[Guest Ricardomeister]

Awol, the point over the prospective Tory candidate was that he voluntarily put that comment on his website...it was not some spur of the moment answer to an awkward question. That shows me that he has bigotted views as why would he mention it otherwise? As for whether it is or is not "normal" I would guess that homosexuals would say it was normal for them.

Of course the party had to get rid of him but I still believe these underlying feelings of bigotry are widespread amongst many Tories and many of their voters.

As for my supposed pro-Labour stance, I stated earlier that on the Sky site I agreed with the Lib Dems on 6 major policy areas and Labour on 4....and of course with the Tories on 0.

Obviously if it were a simple choice between Labour and the Tories I would vote Labour as things have certainly been better as far as I am concerned when comparing their last 2 governments in terms of standard of living, crime, jobs, the NHS, and most importantly Labour's more caring (although that would not be difficult!!) attitude to the vulnerable and less fortunate in society with their treatment of pensioners, the minimum wage, New Deal, the DDA and treating genuine Incapacity Benefit claimants and disabled with the dignity and fairness that I do not believe the Tories would ever do. And, of course I favoured Labour's ban on fox murdering!

Labour are far from perfect, and I have never said otherwise which is why the Lib Dems, who also seem to have a social conscience, deserve a chance to have a go. Labour have gone stale and probably need a spell in opposition and a change of leader but if it were a straight choice between them and the incompetent, cruel Tories then it would be a very simple no-brainer.

[mjmooney]

Awol, the point over the prospective Tory candidate was that he voluntarily put that comment on his website...it was not some spur of the moment answer to an awkward question. That shows me that he has bigotted views as why would he mention it otherwise? As for whether it is or is not "normal" I would guess that homosexuals would say it was normal for them.

Of course the party had to get rid of him but I still believe these underlying feelings of bigotry are widespread amongst many Tories and many of their voters.

As for my supposed pro-Labour stance, I stated earlier that on the Sky site I agreed with the Lib Dems on 6 major policy areas and Labour on 4....and of course with the Tories on 0.

Obviously if it were a simple choice between Labour and the Tories I would vote Labour as things have certainly been better as far as I am concerned when comparing their last 2 governments in terms of standard of living, crime, jobs, the NHS, and most importantly Labour's more caring (although that would not be difficult!!) attitude to the vulnerable and less fortunate in society with their treatment of pensioners, the minimum wage, New Deal, the DDA and treating genuine Incapacity Benefit claimants and disabled with the dignity and fairness that I do not believe the Tories would ever do. And, of course I favoured Labour's ban on fox murdering!

Labour are far from perfect, and I have never said otherwise which is why the Lib Dems, who also seem to have a social conscience, deserve a chance to have a go. Labour have gone stale and probably need a spell in opposition and a change of leader but if it were a straight choice between them and the incompetent, cruel Tories then it would be a very simple no-brainer.

The above post sums up my view exactly.

[Awol]

Darren,

I agree with every word of that but neither media, political parties or their more partisan supporters want anything to do with nuanced debate when a soundbite can be created - whether it is accurate or not.

[drat01]

I think Jon that there are various people who actually want the debate. The powers that be in ALL of the parties though are stopping it preferring more about hair styles and ways to look at the camera and standing in front of bread to get political donations