Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #5 - Leaders Debate Two

[Mantis]

Warned? The absolute worst thing you could do in this election is help to keep Labour in government. They've wrecked this country considerably over the past 13 years and while the financial crisis isn't exactly entirely their fault (although I am getting tired of Labour scapegoating America and bankers all the time) one of the reasons why we have this huge debt problem and will face big public spending cuts in future years is solely because of them. Not only that, but they have also accelerated the rate at which Britain is getting eaten up by the EU. The Lib Dems will do it faster mind you, but that still doesn't change the fact that Labour have given away a lot of our sovereignty to Europe over these years.

I know it's cliched but it is time for change. Keeping that tyrant Brown and his cronies in office is the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot.

[drat01]

Suffice to say Mantis - another subject I completely and utterly disagree with you.

[Mantis]

Suffice to say Mantis - another subject I completely and utterly disagree with you.

About Europe?

[R.I.C.O.]

In the end I decided to hold my nose and vote Labour. I looked at the ballot paper and I couldnt vote for someone parachuted into the constituency. I think the local MP (John Spellar) has a good handle on local issues even though he's a whip, and as a Unison Rep there's more chance Labour will protect the public sector rather than mercilessly cut it.

There was bugger all choice and a spoilt ballot is a wasted vote.

I voted Green in the local election.

[tonyh29]

I see the whiter than White party now have issues over donations... Assume Alpha Healthcare means that Clegg won't be trying to score more cheap points by mentioning Belize

Wonder what's next to go in the lid dems "clean"

reputation ?

[Guest Ricardomeister]

And the Tory party's claims to be a tolerant, decent party are again shown to be false with the comments from a prospective candidate describing homosexuals as "not normal" on his website. Behind the smarmy, vacuous facade of Call Me Dave still lies the same bigotry that was around when Thatchler was in power.

[Mantis]

And the Tory party's claims to be a tolerant, decent party are again shown to be false with the comments from a prospective candidate describing homosexuals as "not normal" on his website. Behind the smarmy, vacuous facade of Call Me Dave still lies the same bigotry that was around when Thatchler was in power.

What about the Labour candidate who said he didn't want any of his children to marry a Muslim?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/england/8644018.stm

All you have proved is that this one guy is a bigot, not the party.

[Reality]

Ok, it is alright for Muslims to state on a regular basis they will only marry a Muslim, but if a Christian says they don't want their children marrying a Muslim..what a load of absolute bullshit.

[Mantis]

Ok, it is alright for Muslims to state on a regular basis they will only marry a Muslim, but if a Christian says they don't want their children marrying a Muslim..what a load of absolute bullshit.

You're putting words into my mouth there. Where did I say I think it is ok for Muslims to say they only want their children marrying other Muslims?

I was just pointing out that candidates from both parties have said things which could be seen as offensive and discriminatory. People just don't seem to highlight Labour's.

[leviramsey]

So a simple Maths says back to 1970? So more right wing than Thatcher? More Right wing than Major? More right wing than Heath? - You may think so, but nah!

Now who said that peace was left wing? - you did

I did not say that, Ian.

- the fact is the Tory party and its backers have always been very aligned to the Unionists. The territory of the right wing and its followers

There is nothing ipso facto right wing about support for the unionists.

Tax credits are right wing? Sorry I do not understand your logic Do you understand how they work in the UK?

How much do you get?

The amount of tax credits you get depends on things like:

* how many children you have living with you

* whether you work - and how many hours you work

* if you pay for childcare

* if you or any child living with you has a disability

* if you're aged 50 plus and are coming off benefits

Your payments also depend on your income. The lower your income, the more tax credit you can get.

Those are exactly the same conditions as apply to the US's Earned Income Tax Credit (implemented by a certain Mr. Reagan, whom I'm sure you would consider right wing). The fact remains that the privatization of the welfare state (which is something that New Labour achieved that Thatcher did very little if anything in that direction) is a right wing ideal.

[Reality]

Ok, it is alright for Muslims to state on a regular basis they will only marry a Muslim, but if a Christian says they don't want their children marrying a Muslim..what a load of absolute bullshit.

You're putting words into my mouth there. Where did I say I think it is ok for Muslims to say they only want their children marrying other Muslims?

I was just pointing out that candidates from both parties have said things which could be seen as offensive and discriminatory. People just don't seem to highlight Labour's.

Oh the irony.

Sorry, where did I say that you said that? I was referring to the actual article, not your view on the matter.

[drat01]

Levi the fact that Regan implemented that system does not then claim it as a right wing ideal. Sorry mate but you wrongly claimed that the Labour Gvmt of the last few years was the most right wing of the past 40. I and many would disagree and many of that 50 achievments for example would never have been implemented if your theory were in any way correct.

As for your comments about the Unionists - I would beg to differ. If you knew about the background to the Unionist / Con alliance and further what that is based on

[Awol]

‘Greece infection’ spreads as stricken nation’s debt is rated junk

Greece plunged deeper into financial turmoil last night after its government bonds were rated as junk by financial markets. The Portuguese government debt also took a hammering after panic spread that a Mediterranean virus of insolvency and bad debts would infect the rest of Europe.

Doubts are being openly expressed that a €30 billion (£26 billion) rescue package supported by Greece’s eurozone partners will be enough to tide the country over.

Norbert Barthle, a budget spokesman for Germany’s ruling party, made the financial mayhem worse yesterday when he said that banks holding Greek bonds might need to accept less than full repayment.

“Whoever bought Greek bonds wouldn’t get 100 per cent of their value but, say, only 80, 90 or 70 per cent — it depends,” he said.

The decision by the leading credit rating agency Standard & Poor’s to cut Greek debt to junk and reduce the sovereign rating for Portugal sent investors scurrying to the safer havens of UK gilts, German bunds and US Treasury bills.

The threat of a “haircut” for investors in eurozone bonds caused stock markets to fall across the world.

The euro continued its slide against the dollar but steadied after its fall against sterling on Monday. The London share market dropped 2.61 per cent, or 150 points, to 5603.52 and the Dow Jones industrial average was off 212 points at 10,992. Markets in Frankfurt and Paris also plunged.

The financial turmoil began on Monday when bond investors hammered Greece, forcing up the cost of short-term borrowing for the debt-strapped nation to 14 per cent.

Eurozone leaders have called an emergency summit on May 10 in the hope of approving a rescue package. Last night it was reported that the International Monetary Fund was prepared to put in another €10 billion.

Greece needs to repay €8.5 billion of maturing bonds on May 19. George Papaconstantinou, the Greek Finance Minister, said yesterday that the country could no longer afford to borrow.

Greece faces a formidable obstacle to rescue cash. Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, has promised to join the rescue only if Athens makes budget cuts lasting several years.

German public opinion, however, is set against the rescue package, of which Germany would pay €8.5 billion. “People in Germany ... worry that we will have to pay for a long time for Greece,” Klaus Abberger, an economist at the German Ifo Institute, said.

A temporary exit from the eurozone was mooted as a solution by the German Free Democratic Party, the liberal coalition partners of Ms Merkel’s Christian Democrats. This could offer Greece a partial reprieve if a devalued currency boosted the Greek economy and helped to avoid mass unemployment, Ben May, an economist at Capital Economics, said.

He added: “Exiting the euro temporarily is not going to solve all their problems. They need to make structural adjustments that ensure competitiveness isn’t lost when they rejoin.”

Are you watching, Brown lovers?

Massive deficits and policies of unsustainable public spending are to blame for this and Greece is now in deep trouble with Portugal possibly heading for the rocks too.

The canary has fallen off it's perch but will the British people and politicians start waking up to the issues that our election is really about?

All of these so called entitlements that Labour have brought in (to buy off a large chunk of the electorate) are going to have to be reviewed, even if they themselves were to get back in. The welfare state is going to get battered, whoever is in charge post May 6th.

[drat01]

Jon again and again you trot out the line about Greeces problems in somehow being the same as the challenges the UK faces. Even that article you quote does not say anything so silly. The economy of Greece differs massively to that of the UK in so many ways

Yes the UK electorate are seemingly waking up and as such the expected Tory landslide that you and other "Cameron lovers" wanted is not happening because people don't a) trust Cameron and Gideon don't believe that a Tory gvmt can or would help - blimey even Clarke one of the leading Tory economic bods yesterday said Osborne was wrong.

[Awol]

And the Tory party's claims to be a tolerant, decent party are again shown to be false with the comments from a prospective candidate describing homosexuals as "not normal" on his website. Behind the smarmy, vacuous facade of Call Me Dave still lies the same bigotry that was around when Thatchler was in power.

What he said:

On the website, Mr Lardner said he would tolerate "common sense equality and respect" for gay people but "will not accept that their behaviour is 'normal' or encourage children to indulge in it."

He also supported the law known as Section 28 which was repealed in 2003.

"The promotion of homosexuality by public bodies...was correctly outlawed by Mrs Thatcher's government. Toleration and understanding is one thing, but state-promotion of homosexuality is quite another," he wrote.

His comments, entitled "what do I believe in?" continued: "Christians (and most of the population) believe homosexuality to be somewhere between 'unfortunate' and simply 'wrong' and they should not be penalised for politely saying so - good manners count too, of course.

"The current 'law' is wrong and must be overturned in the interests of freedom as well as Christian values."

How is that bigotry? The man expressed his personal opinion regarding homosexuality and he is, or at least should be able to voice it publicly.

He hasn't said "I hate gays" or anything even remotely similar, but thanks to this Government people cannot even say how they feel without fear of censure/prosecution. If you think that is a good thing Ricardomeister then I can see why you are such a fan of Labour.

Like true cowards the Tories have suspended him from their party which incidentally shows that the generalisations you are making don't stand up.

I don't give a monkey's about peoples personal sexual persuasions, but biologically speaking I'd be interested if someone could explain how homosexuality is 'normal' when it doesn't lead to reproduction?

[Mantis]

Are you watching, Brown lovers?

Massive deficits and policies of unsustainable public spending are to blame for this and Greece is now in deep trouble with Portugal possibly heading for the rocks too.

The canary has fallen off it's perch but will the British people and politicians start waking up to the issues that our election is really about?

All of these so called entitlements that Labour have brought in (to buy off a large chunk of the electorate) are going to have to be reviewed, even if they themselves were to get back in. The welfare state is going to get battered, whoever is in charge post May 6th.

The problem is the average voter doesn't care about the bigger picture, only what's in it for then. Even many of the people who do realise what a big debt problem we have still wont help to get Labour out because a lot of them are stubborn and wont vote Tory just for the sake of it.

[Jon]

Are you watching, Brown lovers?

Good luck with finding many of those AWOL! :winkold:

[kidlewis]

also point 9 about highest level of employment ever isn't that hard to achieve if you legislate to create jobs. I could do that.

Right we need to regulate the clamping industry, here are a massive set of rules and regulations on how they need to operate, submit information and liaise with a new government department for it. BOOM there is 5,000 jobs. Next.

FSA next

Stating the highest level of employment ever isn't necessarily a great thing. Didn't Russia have 100% employment once? that was great wasn't it.

and I agree with Mantis that whilst the economic crisis wasn't Labours fault, their consistent over spending has put us in a much worse position that if they hadn't. It's just pure fact.

The deficit isn't purely down to the recession is it?

I admit Labour have done some great things, but some not, some extremely invasive and wasteful. Gordon goes on about the threat of terrorism all the time to justify anything that is obviously a stupid idea like ID cards. We have just had the cost of a passport upped by nearly double for biometric passports which were cloned within an hour of being able to be obtained.

[kidlewis]

also something which really annoys me is the £500 cheque poorer families get for child trust fund. WASTE OF MONEY.

the intention is to help poorer families save for the childs future for university. Surely it's better to take all that money and use it to waive tuition fees and help support children who actually excel in education from poorer families to help propel them in to a university place which they could never afford?

£550m the child trust fund costs, of which every penny isn't being properly spent.

[Awol]

Jon again and again you trot out the line about Greeces problems in somehow being the same as the challenges the UK faces.

No I have never said they were the same but the issues that got them into massive trouble - unsustainable public sector spending and a budget deficit of similar size to the UK - are relevant to us. It would therefore be wise to take notice of what can happen when such policies are pursued.

Yes the UK electorate are seemingly waking up and as such the expected Tory landslide that you and other "Cameron lovers" wanted is not happening because people don't a) trust Cameron and Gideon don't believe that a Tory gvmt can or would help - blimey even Clarke one of the leading Tory economic bods yesterday said Osborne was wrong.

I don't even like Cameron, he's a smug and shallow git. However that has nothing at all to do with what I was talking about, which was waking up to the actual state of the national finances, as you well know. By swerving a comprehensive spending review Labour have managed to fool an awful lot of people into concentrating on comparatively trivial issues - and let all the big parties off the hook.

I think tomorrow night will be a real eye opener for those who can watch it.