Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[avfc1982am]

Quite dramatic this and full of bs. I'm sure the shot they blurred out at the end was one of Prighozins wigs.

 

[tinker]

Putins upset alot of people who are professional killers. It's not going to be plain sailing for him that's for sure. 

[LondonLax]

There is a bit of chatter about Russians shelling Ilchenkove which, if true, would imply the Ukrainians have reached the main Russian defence line in the Tokmak direction.

 

 

[magnkarl]

3 hours ago, LondonLax said:

There is a bit of chatter about Russians shelling Ilchenkove which, if true, would imply the Ukrainians have reached the main Russian defence line in the Tokmak direction.

 

 

The Americans have all but confirmed this too.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

All rumours at the moment. 

The first attack in the area was a disaster with Ukraine losing a number of Leopard Tanks. But they changed tactics and began exploiting the Leopard's night vision capability.  They were reinforced by a unit using the UK Challenger tanks.  These have proven to be devastatingly effective. 

It's a pity they don't have more.  

[Demitri_C]

12 hours ago, avfc1982am said:

Quite dramatic this and full of bs. I'm sure the shot they blurred out at the end was one of Prighozins wigs.

 

I mean one thing i thought about is its a absolute miracle civilians were not below it could have killed a whole load of people.

Irresponsible idiots

[bickster]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

I mean one thing i thought about is its a absolute miracle civilians were not below it could have killed a whole load of people.

Irresponsible idiots

Putin really doesn’t care about ordinary people in Russia. It’s really not the Russian way

[bickster]

Finland have arrested and detained the Deputy Leader of the Rusich Group, an ultra Russian nationalist organisation, also literal Nazis, who have heavy links to Wagner and have been fighting in Ukraine with Wagner. Yan Petrovsky has been on the sanctions list for a long time along with the groups leader. Ukraine have asked for his extradition.

[Demitri_C]

34 minutes ago, bickster said:

Finland have arrested and detained the Deputy Leader of the Rusich Group, an ultra Russian nationalist organisation, also literal Nazis, who have heavy links to Wagner and have been fighting in Ukraine with Wagner. Yan Petrovsky has been on the sanctions list for a long time along with the groups leader. Ukraine have asked for his extradition.

Whats he doing in finland?

[bickster]

7 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Whats he doing in finland?

He’s associated with Wagner, so hiding there you’d think but that’s just a guess. The Finish / Russian border is quite porous for those determined enough to cross

[peterw]

On 18/08/2023 at 22:32, bickster said:

How does a defensive alliance threaten another country's security? Let's really stop talking nonsense  about how Russia see's it. Russia knows only too well that NATO has no intention of threatening their existence, what Russia says in public and what Putin / Russian Military High Command really understands to be the case are most of the time completely different things.

So imagine that Russia really does think that (which it doesn’t) it will now have two more countries even closer to its border as a part of the NATO alliance that it didn’t have before the Feb 22 second phase of its invasion of Ukraine. It's not going well is it if their aim was to move NATO further away.

It really is time that people stopped with this Putin inspired line about Russia feeling threatened. It’s come directly from Putin via the usual shills in organisations like Stop The War and the likes of George Galloway and indeed until very recently by rocket polishers like Farage too.

The argument doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny.

 

Russia has been attacked twice from the west with the intention of invading and occupying so you can understand the leadership creating a national psyche of unease of being attacked further. Of course, the current government will use any propaganda that they have to use it for their own benefit, but there's also no doubt that those in the west will try and unsettle and needle Russia at every given opportunity. 

As for Russia thinking NATO won't attack directly that's undoubtedly true, but they do fear that NATO (and US in particular) want to see the Russian federation break up as domestic chaos will result in a decline in their international influence. That is particularly pertinent in the relationship with Iran, Syria, and across Africa and in latin America where US influence (and the west as a result) is opening opportunities for an anti-western liberal democracy bloc to re-emerge very similar in outlook to Cold War days. It will also put pressure on China to consider its alignments in the world.

It is an absolute priority to attempt to isolate Russia and reducing their sphere of influence in Eastern Europe was one step in that direction. This was done purely to act as a threat to Russia (more perceived maybe but it was an assertion of power when Russia was relatively weak). At that point there was no threat to Europe from Russia so you have to ask why you think a 'defensive alliance' such as NATO would need to creep closer to the Russian border knowing the reaction from Moscow. Up to the Maidan revolution Putin had in effect  buffer zone on his western flank of the small Baltic states, Belarus and Ukraine. Finland was non-aligned and he undoubtedly didn't foresee them joining NATO. From those seeds we then got to a point of Putin justifying contravening Chapter 6 of the UN Charter, and using Responsibility to Protect (R2P) as a vehicle for the invasion of Ukraine (which began in 2014).

Russia will pay in the long-term  because the normative values of human security and human rights that are part of the international system mean that states aren't free to invade without consequence. China also has a policy of non-intervention and accepting sovereign borders which puts them in a tricky position with Russia, and BRICS espouses the same non-intervention unless absolutely clear the end objective is clear.  This just has to be ridden through and unfortunately it means more deaths on the front line and in Ukraine (and some in Russia too), but Putin is calculating, and knowing this it has to be questioned what the motivation really was. He's not the evil demon as painted in the west, and nor is he protecting (Russian speaking) people in Ukraine as painted by Russian media, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Hopefully the war will be done before the US Election 2024, because the loss of US support would be catastrophic for Ukraine.

[NoelVilla]

[blandy]

50 minutes ago, peterw said:

He's not the evil demon as painted in the west

Yes he is. By his deeds we know that he is. It’s stunning how absolutely extensive his killing, stealing, imprisoning, torturing, poisoning and so on actually was, even before the invasion of Ukraine.  He’s totally power grabbed the leadership of Russia at the expense of the Russian people in particular.

None of that is to deny that “the West” hasn’t done some awful stuff too, or that the West hasn’t got or had some rotten leaders, but Putin is on another level of wickedness.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

1 hour ago, peterw said:

Russia has been attacked twice from the west with the intention of invading and occupying so you can understand the leadership creating a national psyche of unease of being attacked 

Which 2 attacks do you refer to?  

 

[luckyeddie]

4 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Which 2 attacks do you refer to?  

 

I would guess France (Napoleon) and Germany (Hitler)

[peterw]

21 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Which 2 attacks do you refer to?  

 

Only the big historic ones of France and Nazi Germany. There are many other small incursions.

[bickster]

1 hour ago, peterw said:

ne purely to act as a threat to Russia (more perceived maybe but it was an assertion of power when Russia was relatively weak). At that point there was no threat to Europe from Russia so you have to ask why you think a 'defensive alliance' such as NATO would need to creep closer to the Russian border knowing the reaction from Moscow

Sorry but I only skin read your post but this bit stands out.

Who says there was no threat from Russia? Seriously, they’ve always been the threat.

You also seem to be saying that NATO has crept closer to Russia, that’s impossible without the willingness of those newer NATO countries to be a part of NATO and quite frankly the citizens of the Baltic Countries and the former Soviet Bloc countries that have joined were demanding it of their politicians. Just imagine what a kick in the teeth that would have been for those fledging democracies if NATO refused them. Now two more western democracies are joined/ joining that are closer to Russia because… of Russia. One of them Finland borders directly with Russia but even that only demonstrates how nonsensical your (and Putins) argument is. Turkey has been in NATO for over 70 years, it’s only 380km from Russia. NATO has always been close to the Russian border.

Your argument is as ever easy to dismantle as it’s based on complete untruths.

Please keep posting though because you narrative should be preserved for posterity

2 hours ago, peterw said:

. He's not the evil demon as painted in the west,

Sorry, I just read that bit. LOL 

[peterw]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Yes he is. By his deeds we know that he is. It’s stunning how absolutely extensive his killing, stealing, imprisoning, torturing, poisoning and so on actually was, even before the invasion of Ukraine.  He’s totally power grabbed the leadership of Russia at the expense of the Russian people in particular.

None of that is to deny that “the West” hasn’t done some awful stuff too, or that the West hasn’t got or had some rotten leaders, but Putin is on another level of wickedness.

I completely agree and domestically he is acting as a totalitarian despot, and what comes with that is what you entail. On the foreign front though he tends to be more calculated which makes his invasion of Ukraine even more odd as there can never be a good end to it for either side. he seems dug in now for the long-term to try and wear the west's interest and patience down. We can only hope that the US maintains the same level of interest and patience as he is showing.

[peterw]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

Sorry but I only skin read your post but this bit stands out.

Who says there was no threat from Russia? Seriously, they’ve always been the threat.

You also seem to be saying that NATO has crept closer to Russia, that’s impossible without the willingness of those newer NATO countries to be a part of NATO and quite frankly the citizens of the Baltic Countries and the former Soviet Bloc countries that have joined were demanding it of their politicians. Just imagine what a kick in the teeth that would have been for those fledging democracies if NATO refused them. Now two more western democracies are joined/ joining that are closer to Russia because… of Russia. One of them Finland borders directly with Russia but even that only demonstrates how nonsensical your (and Putins) argument is. Turkey has been in NATO for over 70 years, it’s only 380km from Russia. NATO has always been close to the Russian border.

Your argument is as ever easy to dismantle as it’s based on complete untruths.

Please keep posting though because you narrative should be preserved for posterity

Sorry, I just read that bit. LOL 

I agree that they have the right to join NATO. Russia has hardly a leg to stand on when they invaded (by and large) eastern europe to create the buffer zone. But that buffer zone was created because of Nazi Germany (and to a degree napoleon's invasion). The more that join NATO the better as it puts the pressure on but it also backs him into an entrenched corner in Ukraine as he now cannot back down. This won't finish on the battlefield so the next question at some point is what should be done to end the conflict. Yes Russia should withdraw but that's not happening any time soon is it? 

As for the willingness of those countries to join NATO again that is entirely up to them, but it wouldn't have happened without US approval in effect, and the US would have been happy to creep closer to Russia's borders despite saying that wouldn't expand eastwards. Again, those countries have the right to join and get the security assurances from whoever they want, but its naive to think it was not a move on the US part to apply pressure on Russia.

 

[blandy]

12 minutes ago, peterw said:

the US would have been happy to creep closer to Russia's borders despite saying that wouldn't expand eastwards. Again, those countries have the right to join and get the security assurances from whoever they want,

The US said they wouldn’t “creep closer”, to use your words, in Germany - ie East Germany as was. Amongst those to have confirmed this are Mikhael Gorbachev (and various notes of the meeting).  I think James Baker is another to have confirmed this, from memory. 

edit. Here’s a more detailed answer