National ID cards - good idea?

[tonyh29]

How do you force people to carry them?

easy , you make people have to show them when using a credit card or buying a train ticket , receiving prescriptions from the chemist and so on

it's what they do in Hungary ..

Any govt that brings it in will have trouble and it's not like Brown doesn't have enough of his own already without risking an ID card revolt on the streets of London

2/3rds of people don't want them ..when will this arrogant government listen ??

[snowychap]

And following up on the Midas story, here is the Grauniad's editorial piece:

link

It certainly sounds suspect. Many reading our story today about how police nationwide will get hand-held fingerprint scanners in order to carry out spot identity checks doubtless felt their hackles rise. Coming from the government of 42 days, of the national ID-card scheme, of the ever-growing DNA database, surely this is yet another scheme to erode civil liberties?

Not yet, although it is easy to see why some privacy campaigners are alarmed by the prospect of tens of thousands of police armed with BlackBerry-sized devices that enable them to check people's identities. There are, however, two important safeguards that should give some reassurance. The first is the legal requirement that fingerprints collected by patrols will not be stored on any database. The second is the assurance that Project Midas, as it is known, will not be linked with the national ID card scheme. Defenders point out that the police have long had the right to take fingerprints at the police station; these new devices simply make it easier to collect and check them on the beat. A criminal driver may lie about his identity, but these devices will catch him out in under five minutes.

As it is planned, this scheme is on the right side of the line between policing and snooping. If Midas does not turn whatever we touch into permanent evidence, those concerned about civil liberties should not demur from its being extended nationally. But they should also be on guard for any encroachment of the system. What if police take the fingerprints, or the mugshot, of an armed man who then runs away? It is quite easy to see how situations like that may give rise to lobbying for evidence to be kept. It is also easy to imagine a government administering a national ID-card scheme arguing that storage of roadside identification would be a good weapon in the war against terror. These are only niggling worries, but many will have them. That is indicative of how much damage this government has done to its reputation as a respecter of civil liberties.

Just before leaving office, Tony Blair wrote: "We have chosen as a society to put the civil liberties of the suspect ... first." While not as gung-ho, Gordon Brown has not publicly disavowed that sentiment, or removed the legislation that embodied it. The result is an ever-expanding pile of threats to our liberties. Mobile fingerprinting could be combined with the stop and search powers granted under the Terrorism Act 2000 to become a licence to hassle. To guard against that, the police must give numbers and ethnic breakdown of those stopped under this new system. And ministers need to commit not to extend the scheme. Good policing, after all, relies on the trust of those policed.

Now, I'm not sure whether I'd believe that commitment in the first place but, even if I did, it doesn't mean that future ministers (or governments) will feel bound by that commitment.

[snowychap]

Gordon Brown says government cannot ensure data safety

Gordon Brown has made a frank admission that government cannot promise the safety of personal data entrusted by the public.

The Prime Minister was speaking hours after it emerged that a memory stick containing the passwords to a government website used submit online tax returns had been lost.

Speaking on the second day of his trip to the Gulf, the Prime Minister said it was caused by "mistakes" which were “human”.

He also sought to clear government officials of blame, stressing that a private company – Atos Origin, a computer management firm – had accepted responsibility for the loss.

The Department for Work and Pensions was forced to shut down the Gateway service, which is used by consumers to pay parking tickets and fill in tax returns after the data, on a memory stick found outside a pub.

The loss by Atos Origin, which won a five-year £46.7million contract to manage the Government Gateway in 2006, was reported to the Government last week. The memory stick was found outside the Orbital Pub in Cannock and handed in to a Sunday newspaper.

Mr Brown said this was completely unacceptable, and warned that the company would be punished.

“I think that the company responsible has accepted responsibility and it is a private company. I think action will be taken by the Department of Work and Pensions. It’s not acceptable behaviour,” he told ITV News. He said that the company could expect “changes to the contract.”

The Government has faced repeated embarrassments over lost data, with 277 data breaches reported since 25 million child benefit records went missing nearly a year ago. Only last week James Purnell, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, was forced to apologise for leaving papers on a train. Mr Brown appeared to accept data loss in future was inevitable.

“It is important to recognise we cannot promise that every single item of information will always be safe because mistakes are made by human beings. Mistakes are made in the transportation, if you like in the communication, of information.”

[snowychap]

ID cards plan 'still on track' (apparently)

The Home Office today denied that it was performing a "complete roll-back" on identity cards by restricting trials to workers at just two airports.

Airside workers at all UK airports were due to be issued with ID cards from the second half of 2009 under the Home Office's delivery plan, which was published in March.

But Jacqui Smith, the home secretary, is now expected to confirm that there will be an 18-month pilot scheme at just two airports – London City and Manchester.

Her decision follows opposition from the Unite union, which argues that ID cards require fewer checks than existing security measures. The unions also argue that staff would have to pay £30 for a card to do their jobs – although cards would be free of charge during the pilot scheme.

Phil Booth of the NO2ID campaign said: "We are seeing a rather transparent attempt, I think, to save some ministerial face.

"The unions and the industry are clearly opposed to this and if the government were to try to force this on the 200,000 airside workers they had previously claimed, then they would find themselves either in court or facing industrial actions," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

He added that the pilot scheme represented a "complete roll-back" from the government's original intention.

Non-EU foreign nationals who are students or marriage visa holders will be issued with ID cards later this month.

The Home Office's delivery plan, published on March 6, then states that: "From 2009, the scheme will be extended to UK citizens. The first ID cards will be issued to people working in specific sensitive roles or locations where verification of identity will enhance the protection of the public. This will start in the second half of 2009, with the issuing of identity cards to those working airside in the country's airports."

The Home Office said that the second half of 2009 would mark "the start of the roll-out" and that it was "still on track in that way".

Later today, the home secretary is expected to unveil plans for private firms, shops and the Royal Mail to bid for contracts to fingerprint millions of people for the new identity cards.

The government is aiming to contract out the task of gathering biometric data for new passports and ID to the private sector, according to the Daily Mail.

Applicants will have all 10 fingerprints and their faces scanned. The data will then be passed to the Identity and Passport Service to be stored on the new, computerised national identity register.

A Home Office spokeswoman confirmed that the government wanted to create a network of "convenient outlets" where people could easily go to complete the application procedures for the biometric documents.

Smith, who is delivering a keynote speech on ID cards later today, is also expected to disclose that the cost of the scheme - previously estimated at £4.5bn - is now closer to £5bn.

Booth warned that private companies were unlikely to be interested in bidding for contracts which would be scrapped if Labour loses the next general election.

"The government is selling a pig in a poke. What company is going embarrass itself to the tune of millions for a contract that everyone outside the Home Office itself knows will be cancelled by a new administration?" he said.

He added that the true cost of the scheme was being hidden, with billions of pounds "buried" in other departments' budgets.

[tonyh29]

This government has done nothing to prove the case for ID cards , why do they insist on wasting money

5 bn is a lot of dosh that could be better used elsewhere that's for sure ..mind you it us the individuals that will foot the bill for this folly not the government

Have the Tory party said they will scrap them if they are introduced before they win the next election ?

[Gringo]

Have the Tory party said they will scrap them if they are introduced before they win the next election ?

They have, though I'm not quite sure I believe them. I believe once in power then party will find it desirable to hold onto them for certain positions (such as airport staff) or to tackle certain issues close to every tory heart (immigration, benefit cheats) and then slowly expanded to students, pensioners, people with brown skins etc etc.

[PaulMcgrathsknees]

We can't wait for ID cards,Jacqui says so:

I love our Gov't

Next we will all be asking to join the Euro and have Gordon Goldfish for another 4 years and want the Gov't to tell us what we like for tea.

[tonyh29]

Next we will all be asking to join the Euro

you say it in jest but dragging sterling down to parity witht the Euro is all part of Gordon's plan to sleepwalk us into having Euro

Jacqui Smith says public demand means people will be able to pre-register for an ID card within the next few months.

The cards will be available for all from 2012 but she said: "I regularly have people coming up to me and saying they don't want to wait that long."

I'm sure Brown , Straw and Milliband don't want to wait that long ..but what about the general public ..

bring it in then f**kwits ..and then don't be surprised when you get booted from power

[rjw63]

I have a passport and a driving license with my mugshot on - why do I need an identity card?

Surely its about the revenue?

I wouldnt give a toss about ID cards if it was going to be free

[snowychap]

£1,000 penalties for out-of-date ID details

• Ministers want to avoid creating identity 'martyrs'

• Initial £30 fee to be 'modified' by 2012

People who fail to tell the authorities of a change of address or amend other key personal details within three months will face civil penalty fines of up to £1,000 a time when the national identity card scheme is up and running, according to draft Home Office regulations published yesterday.

The Home Office made clear that repeated failures to keep an entry on the national identity register up to date could ultimately be enforced by bailiffs being sent round to seize property.

But yesterday's detailed regulations to implement the national identity card scheme make clear that they intend to avoid the creation of ID card "martyrs", by levying no penalty on those who refuse to register for the national identity card database in the first place.

The Liberal Democrat peer, Lady Williams, is amongst ID card "refuseniks" who have said they are prepared to go to jail rather than sign up for the scheme.

But the regulations show that the main sanction they are likely to face is being barred from leaving the country when it is time to renew their passport.

The regulations confirm ministers' intention to make passports a "designated document" which means anyone applying or renewing their passport will be automatically issued with an ID card at the same time. Ministers claim that this does not amount to compulsion but ID card critics disagree.

The consultation on the fine detail of how the ID card scheme will work in practice published yesterday also makes clear:

• The £30 initial fee for a standalone ID card valid for travel in Europe only is capped for the year 2009/10 when it will be compulsory for airport workers and on a voluntary basis for students. The regulations allow for this fee to be "modified" in future years including by 2012, when it is anticipated that mass rollout will take place with 5-6 million combined passports/identity cards a year expected to be issued. Passport fees will be on top of this basic charge.

• If it necessary to change any of the details held on the card, such as name or fingerprints which entail a new card being issued, a further £30 will be charged. Changes of address or other details which do not appear on the card will not be charged.

• Transgendered people: those "moving from their birth gender to an acquired gender" will be able to apply for two ID cards - one for each gender. The second ID card will use a different name, signature and photograph although they will be linked as one entry on the national ID card register. Nevertheless they will be charged two fees for the privilege of holding two cards.

• Homeless people and others who live "transient lifestyles" will also be able to register under the scheme. The Home Office expects to be able to agree with homeless people a suitable place to be registered as their residence - presumably even if it is only a railway arch. Those who move around frequently for work will be able to register their principal residence without notifying each move.

But the draft regulations also set out in detail the escalating series of fines for those who fail to keep their ID card register entry up to date or fail to correct errors on it.

The kind of details that must be provided within three months are a change of address, a change of name perhaps because of marriage or by deed poll, a change of nationality, a change of gender, or a significant change in an individual's face or their fingerprints perhaps because of an accident.

The Home Office say they will not need to police this aspect as it will soon become apparent when somebody tries, for example, to get on a plane with a ID card/passport with an out of date address that does not match that the bank debit/credit card they used to book the flight.

They say they may well find themselves not being allowed to travel. Those who lose their ID Cards or have them stolen will have to report the loss within a month.

Fines for failure to update the register start at £125 going up to £1,000 for repeatedly failing to comply. As a civil penalty the bailiffs may be sent in to enforce payment.

The shadow home secretary, Dominic Grieve, said the scheme was truly the worst of all worlds - expensive, intrusive and unworkable.

"The home secretary has confirmed the worst element of the scheme - a single, mammoth and highly vulnerable database exposing masses of our personal details to criminal hackers.

"Worse still, she has magnified the scope for fraud by allowing spot fines to be issued by email," he said.

The NO2ID campaign say that in just four weeks in 2005, more than 10,000 people pledged online to refuse to register for an ID card.

"It is possible that refusal could be made a crime but the government has shied away from that so far. If enough people say no, it will be impossible," said a campaign spokesman.

[villab0y]

I have a passport and a driving license with my mugshot on - why do I need an identity card?

Surely its about the revenue?

I wouldnt give a toss about ID cards if it was going to be free

Yeh thats how I feel really.

Don't mind having one really, just don't wanna pay for it.

[tonyh29]

So the first steps for roll-out have been taken .....

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said the scheme would demonstrate "our commitment to preventing immigration abuse and protecting the prosperity of the UK".

She added: "In time identity cards for foreign nationals will replace paper documents and give employers a safe and secure way of checking a migrant's right to work and study in the UK."

could have sworn ID cards were originally all about keeping us safe from terrorists

Still I guess this foreigner ID card will help make it easier to ensure Brown's "British jobs for British workers " becomes a reality

[Gringo]

No tony - that was the volunatry ID cards that work at keeping us safe. These are the mandatory cards that keep darkies out.

[Richard]

One more nail in the Labour coffin

[blandy]

I think BALPA (Pilot's Union) are talking about balloting for Strike action over being compelled to have the wretched things.

[MattJ83]

Sorry i haven't had the time to read all of this thread!

However, for what it's worth, i think cards are a good idea for every Brit to carry around.

I imagine a card with all your medical data on which you give to GP's, Doctors etc...this would mean you are in charge of your medical data and if you are in an accident you have it on you so that medical staff will know if you are allergic to anything.

I don't see why the cards cant incorporate data such as passport info.

IMO, this would cut the need for the goverment to hold data on people.

This would help curb these ideas of having all your data stored on massive databases.

By the amount of money the government would save in contracting companies to create databases they ould use the revenue to make these cards free of charge.

[blandy]

By the amount of money the government would save in contracting companies to create databases they could use the revenue to make these cards free of charge.

Not in this lifetime, on this planet IMO.

"Selling off" the "right" to run the database would involve the buying company being able to make money from the data. That is a very rocky road - the Government selling our personal data to commercial enterprises. It's also illegal.

Alternatively, some kind of PFI type arrangement - where the Gov't pays a company to run the database for them, well PFIs cost more money to run than if they just did it themselves. They are a total failure. A Blair third way load of bollex. They are a political tool for the benefit of the Government.

Basically some rich party donor owning a company gets a contract from the Government which allows them to make a profit and pay dividends and bonuses for doing something. Donor happy. Donations continue. Equally if it goes wrong, the Gov't says "it's not our fault it's [Virgin/EDS/insert name of Plc]'s fault."

But basically introducing a new database, with all the security, data gathering and all the rest will not "save" money, it will cost money. It'll cost to run, cost to set up and cost to sort out when they f*ck it up.

Guess who will pay for that - Us.

[MattJ83]

But basically introducing a new database, with all the security, data gathering and all the rest will not "save" money, it will cost money. It'll cost to run, cost to set up and cost to sort out when they f*ck it up.

Guess who will pay for that - Us.

Yep - fully agree with that.

Implementing this new nhs database for example has cost quite a bit of cash. Thats why i am saying ridding the idea of databases of information with everyone just having all of their own data on their own ID card. Never going to happen like that of course.

Thats probably an idea that is too simplistic to be fair but in theory ID cards could work as long as they were used in the situations which were actually a help.

[bickster]

Yep - fully agree with that.

Implementing this new nhs database for example has cost quite a bit of cash. Thats why i am saying ridding the idea of databases of information with everyone just having all of their own data on their own ID card. Never going to happen like that of course.

Thats probably an idea that is too simplistic to be fair but in theory ID cards could work as long as they were used in the situations which were actually a help.

Have you ever encountered the concept of identity theft?

[mykeyb]

Defo a good idea.

We also should have our National Insurance number tattooed on our forehead while they are at it.