The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[ml1dch]

52 minutes ago, Thug said:

To be honest, from being a member of this forum for a very long time, I take your last sentence as a given from 99.999999% of posters here.  It’s genuinely a very nice community, so that’s my default position.

I think my main issue is that the default position of 2 sides to this ‘war’

To understand my position, I think you need to start thinking of this as a 3 sided war.  You have to separate Hamas and the civilians.  Hamas do something, and the Gazans suffer.

I don’t know the answer.  What I see is Hamas, war criminals.  IDF, war criminals.  The people of Gaza and Israel as the victims.

I think that anyone who has got as far as taking the time to talk to strangers on the internet about potential solutions, that same percentage that you give would be completely on board with your three sides. People who don't want the complete destruction of one side or the other would recognise the bit in bold without too much dissent.

But without wanting to be too provocative, I'd go as far to say as the people who say "there should be a ceasefire", they're using it as shorthand for "we want Israel to stop". Which is fine, I'd like that too, but that's not a ceasefire, because Hamas are not going to hold up their end of the ceasefire bargain. So when Israel stop and Hamas carry on, what is the play from there*? Because what happens in reality then is Israel turn round and say "see, we told you that this is what we had to do".

Obviously that's rhetorical, as I know that you've already said you don't know, as is the case for anyone. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by ml1dch

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, Thug said:

We’re telling them, don’t worry, carry on.  We’ll keep an eye on anyone else that threatens to intervene.

The status quo is that Israel has nothing to lose.  No consequences.  We are a huge part of enabling it by proving any help at all.

We shouldn’t be doing it.

Who is the "we" who's telling them to carry on (bearing in mind this is the Labour party thread). Labour has voted for a humanitarian pause, the SNP motion supported by some Labour was for a cease fire.

The USA is pretty much the most supportive and they've said (father Ted) "careful now" and I think the tories have echoed that.

[OutByEaster?]

How 'bout that Labour party eh?

 

[magnkarl]

6 hours ago, Jareth said:

Has he donated to Labour more than once?

On this whole lobby thing, what do you think about then Labour MPs working for Iran? Does it qualify as lobbying when Labour MPs take cash from a country to lie for them on the telly?

You’ve more than once indicated support for one of said MPs, but seem very interested in what I find a much lower level of lobbyism than said example to grind against current MPs.

Edited November 18, 2023 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

17 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

On this whole lobby thing, what do you think about then Labour PMs working for Iran? 

The only Labour PM in my lifetime was Tony Blair and I’m fairly sure he didn’t work for Iran. As for Corbyn going on Iran telly, when a backbench MP, it’s a tad  different to extensive lobbying and funding of what we all consider the next PM and his key MPs. But talk about Jezza all you want, he’s irrelevant now. 

[magnkarl]

27 minutes ago, Jareth said:

The only Labour PM in my lifetime was Tony Blair and I’m fairly sure he didn’t work for Iran. As for Corbyn going on Iran telly, when a backbench MP, it’s a tad  different to extensive lobbying and funding of what we all consider the next PM and his key MPs. But talk about Jezza all you want, he’s irrelevant now. 

So Corbyn wasn’t leader of the Labour Party? How about Chris Williamson or George Galloway?

You seem to have different rules for the people you support and don’t support, at this moment in time there’s absolutely nothing separating how far JC and KS have come in the party, you’re accusing one of them of not committing hard enough to a symbolic act due to a plane ticket and small donation to his campaign but won’t see the symbolism in working for and taking money off of the Iranian state broadcaster.

I meant to write MPs, but autocorrect.

Edited November 18, 2023 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

A plane ticket and small donation to his campaign

Gonna need to back that one up with some facts. 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

So Corbyn wasn’t leader of the Labour Party? How about Chris Williamson or George Galloway?

You seem to have different rules for the people you support and don’t support, at this moment in time there’s absolutely nothing separating how far JC and KS have come in the party, you’re accusing one of them of a symbolic act but won’t see the symbolism in working for the Iranian state broadcaster.

Actually Corbyn / Williamson / Galloway were far worse in my opinion. What they were doing were producing propaganda for and legitimising the Iranian regime. Russia too in the case of at least two of them. That’s a whole few levels up from being lobbied by someone.

[magnkarl]

Just now, Jareth said:

Gonna need to back that one up with some facts. 

It’s in the last two pages of this thread.

[magnkarl]

10 minutes ago, bickster said:

Actually Corbyn / Williamson / Galloway were far worse in my opinion. What they were doing were producing propaganda for and legitimising the Iranian regime. Russia too in the case of at least two of them. That’s a whole few levels up from being lobbied by someone.

That’s sort of what I was aiming at, too.

The other day Jezza tried to claim that it was him and STWC that hosted the protest in London by the way, talk about a naive old stooge.

Edited November 18, 2023 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

11 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

It’s in the last two pages of this thread.

13 of 31 members of the shadow cab have received donations. Starmer got £50k for his leadership campaign, and failed to declare it until after he won - what an oversight!. £200k value in total to the Labour MPs, another £360k to Better Together, described in Politico as “highly influential think tank quietly shaping the direction of the party”. I'm getting these figures from the article linked below - as the article itself reasons, none of this is evidence that Starmer makes decisions based on what lobbyists say - but it's all laid out and folks can make their own minds up. Edit - I've literally just found this website - but I'm making the assumption that they'd have their asses sued for making shit up. 

https://www.declassifieduk.org/two-fifths-of-keir-starmers-cabinet-have-been-funded-by-pro-israel-lobbyists/#:~:text=Starmer received a £50%2C000,he'd won the election.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Jareth

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

13 of 31 members of the shadow cab have received donations. Starmer got £50k for his leadership campaign, and failed to declare it until after he won - what an oversight!. £200k value in total to the Labour MPs, another £360k to Better Together, described in Politico as “highly influential think tank quietly shaping the direction of the party”. I'm getting these figures from the article linked below - as the article itself reasons, none of this is evidence that Starmer makes decisions based on what lobbyists say - but it's all laid out and folks can make their own minds up.

https://www.declassifieduk.org/two-fifths-of-keir-starmers-cabinet-have-been-funded-by-pro-israel-lobbyists/#:~:text=Starmer received a £50%2C000,he'd won the election.

How much do you think Corbyn got from Iran?

[Jareth]

Just now, magnkarl said:

How much do you think Corbyn got from Iran?

Please tell - I don't actually know. 

[magnkarl]

4 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Please tell - I don't actually know. 

27.000. For working for a totalitarian regime who at the same time as he bragged about them on their tv channel tortured a journalist live on TV.

Now tell me, what do you think makes Keir Starmer so affected by a small amount for cash donated to his campaign by a British Jew many years ago that it now affects his view on a ceasefire?

Did you think about it with JC?

Edited November 18, 2023 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

Just now, magnkarl said:

27.000 pounds. For working for a totalitarian regime who at the same time as he bragged about them on their tv channel tortured a journalist live on TV.

Now tell me, what do you think makes Keir Starmer so affected by a small amount for cash donated to his campaign by a British Jew many years ago that it now affects his view on a ceasefire?

Did you think about it with JC?

Three things. I asked Google - it's £20k GBP. Chinn is an active lobbyist for Israel - whether he's a British Jew is irrelevant isn't it - wouldn't want to conflate that would we? And that small amount of cash - please re-read previous post, small dollop of cash, just to Kier, it is not - I don't think it helps to spin these things.  

[blandy]

3 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think it's telling in a way that Starmer is receiving much more direct criticism for not backing a ceasefire than Sunak is.

We still expect the Tories to be 'bad' and Labour to be 'good' and that massively oversimplified paradigm is the one that Starmer repeatedly finds himself the wrong side of, not just on Israel but on many things. Frightened horses are one thing, but he needs to be mindful that even if he's not offering 'good', that the 'less bad' he's offering voters is 'less bad' enough to justify their faith in him.

I don't think that's actually right, or has almost ever been right, really. Yes "we" as in people who are left leaning tend to see the Tories as "bad" and often Labour as "less bad/good" depending on where on the spectrum Labour is sitting at any time. But if you take "we" to be the Country generally, then I don't think there's really any expectation of Labour to be good (overall). Otherwise I guess they'd always sit at >50% in the polls. Lots of Tory or swing voters don't necessarily see Labour as "good". Lib Dems, SNPs, Plaid, Greens, Reform etc - they all have major beefs with Labour or Labour's policies or actions. I'm expecting part of the Tory defence of their lamentable record to be a "labour would be even worse" kind of thing and for some to swallow it.

I'm not party political. I know I detest the tories and what they do, but beyond that the others (over time) vary in my estimation of their levels of "good" (as defined by me and my preferences). I don't think, currently according to the polls that for the country, or at least those sampled in the polls Labour is being seen as on the wrong side of things at all. Someone (maybe @bickster) posted a poll in the Tory thread that showed Labour being ahead of the tories on every subject/sector, for example. People must think they're doing pretty good for that to be the case (and yes I appreciate that the country has come to the [correct] conclusion that the tories are effing dreadful).

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Three things. I asked Google - it's £20k GBP. Chinn is an active lobbyist for Israel - whether he's a British Jew is irrelevant isn't it - wouldn't want to conflate that would we? And that small amount of cash - please re-read previous post, small dollop of cash, just to Kier, it is not - I don't think it helps to spin these things.  

The point I was trying to make is that you seem to think that 28k from Iran is nothing as it was one of the people in ‘your’ camp, while when KS receives something from a British man it’s clearly some big conspiracy.

I don’t think anyone in our politics should be bought off, it shouldn’t be allowed. I just don’t think looking for conspiracies is helpful, especially when the last leader essentially took a paid job for the people that is the direct cause for the deaths of millions of people in the ME for their support for groups like Hamas, Houthis etc.

[OutByEaster?]

6 minutes ago, blandy said:

People must think they're doing pretty good for that to be the case (and yes I appreciate that the country has come to the [correct] conclusion that the tories are effing dreadful).

I have a feeling you could put the current Tory party up against a pumpkin and the pumpkin would win in polling at the moment, but I appreciate the point your making.

I think on matters of foreign war though, there's still an expectation that Labour would be toward the left (peace-y) or the (more war-y) Tory party and I think that's what causes the more virulent criticism of Starmer than Sunak for what is basically the same position.

 

[Jareth]

Just now, magnkarl said:

The point I was trying to make is that you seem to think that 28k from Iran is nothing as it was one of the people in ‘your’ camp, while when KS receives something from a British man it’s clearly some big conspiracy.

I don’t think anyone in our politics should be bought off, it shouldn’t be allowed. I just don’t think looking for conspiracies is helpful, especially when the last leader essentially took a paid job for the people that is the direct cause for the deaths of millions of people in the ME for their support for groups like Hamas, Houthis etc.

£28k? It's going up by the minute! British man is an active lobbyist for Israel, Jimmy Wales' website tells me this. No conspiracy - these are facts - I'm personally trying to tread carefully due to sounding AS on a few occasions  - BTW I'm disgusted on your behalf that you've had abuse over Gaza, it's bang out of order. 

 

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Chinn is an active lobbyist for Israel

What do you mean here on the context of your suspicion of Starmer being influenced by this man to come down on Israel's side. I mean (for example) if someone as a private citizen (say you) live in a country and you donate to the hopeful leader of a party, but you also happen to lobby for (say) Save the Children in Israel - are you a lobbyist for Israel, or a lobbyist for a charity in Israel. Repeat for a baked bean factory, or an Olive Oil exporter, or an airline - or all of them. Unless he is a lobbyist for Netanyahu's government the "lobbyist for Israel" thing is a bit meaningless and a red herring. I genuinely don't know whether this bloke is a supporter of what Israel is doing, or of Netanyahu or his gov't. Do you?