Jareth Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 1 minute ago, blandy said: What do you mean here on the context of your suspicion of Starmer being influenced by this man to come down on Israel's side. I mean (for example) if someone as a private citizen (say you) live in a country and you donate to the hopeful leader of a party, but you also happen to lobby for (say) Save the Children in Israel - are you a lobbyist for Israel, or a lobbyist for a charity in Israel. Repeat for a baked bean factory, or an Olive Oil exporter, or an airline - or all of them. Unless he is a lobbyist for Netanyahu's government the "lobbyist for Israel" thing is a bit meaningless and a red herring. I genuinely don't know whether this bloke is a supporter of what Israel is doing, or of Netanyahu or his gov't. Do you? I'm going off this here website - don't shoot me if it's a nut job site - but I 'think' it's a carefully sourced bit of journalism. It outlines Chinn's donations and describes his funding of Labour Friends of Israel since the 1980s. https://www.declassifieduk.org/two-fifths-of-keir-starmers-cabinet-have-been-funded-by-pro-israel-lobbyists/#:~:text=Starmer received a £50%2C000,he'd won the election. It is difficult to measure the overall impact of these lobbying efforts on Labour’s current policy on Israel. LFI supports calls for an “humanitarian pause” in the bombing rather than a ceasefire, and frequently shares posts from the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) on Twitter. The Labour party’s current support for Israel’s bombing campaign in Gaza and opposition to a ceasefire is also clearly guided by a reluctance to step out of line with US policy. As Declassified recently reported, the Labour party is seeking to foster the Atlantic relationship, and has been signalling to Washington that the “brief period when Jeremy Corbyn’s party challenged the establishment consensus on foreign policy” is well and truly over. However, the pro-Israel campaign remains one of the largest lobbying forces within British politics, and this clearly buys a certain degree of influence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 18, 2023 2 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I think on matters of foreign war though, there's still an expectation that Labour would be toward the left (peace-y) or the (more war-y) Tory party and I think that's what causes the more virulent criticism of Starmer than Sunak for what is basically the same position. Yeah, I'd agree with that first bit. But I wouldn't say that people necessarily see that as "good" (some clearly do, some don't). I mean there's a definite feeling from parts of the country that being peace-y is "weak" or paramount to supporting terrorists or whatever, and therefore bad, but that more war-y is "good". I think partly, that's why Starmer is treading the path he is - juggling a genuine wish for the killing to stop withe a belief that Israel has to be able to try and get the hostages back and biff Hamas (and Hezbollah etc). Where I personally think he's fallen short is the lack of condemnation for the massive destruction and killing of civillians. Like I said the other day, personally whether you (he) calls it a ceasefire or a humanitarian pause is to me sematics and pretty much the same thing in reality. We all know there will be a "next time" where whatever you call the peace gets broken. Not that any of the UK discussion makes any difference on the ground anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 18, 2023 4 minutes ago, Jareth said: I'm going off this here website None of that answers the question of what "Lobbyist for Israel" actually means regarding this bloke. It's just a phrase a bod has typed into Wikipedia to summarise his collective activities for businesses and good causes in or related to Israel and disdvantaged Jewish groups etc. as far as I can tell. For him to be influencing Starmer, nearly 4 years after he donated to his election fund, he'd have to be a supporter of the Israeli government and its course of action, but I'm not at all clear that he is ( I don't know). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 18, 2023 16 minutes ago, Jareth said: However, the pro-Israel campaign remains one of the largest lobbying forces within British politics, and this clearly buys a certain degree of influence See, here we go again. Is there a source for this claim? Because quite frankly from what I know (very little) it seems like a wild wild claim and you know, is bordering on… yep that good old AS trope 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 8 minutes ago, blandy said: None of that answers the question of what "Lobbyist for Israel" actually means regarding this bloke. It's just a phrase a bod has typed into Wikipedia to summarise his collective activities for businesses and good causes in or related to Israel and disdvantaged Jewish groups etc. as far as I can tell. For him to be influencing Starmer, nearly 4 years after he donated to his election fund, he'd have to be a supporter of the Israeli government and its course of action, but I'm not at all clear that he is ( I don't know). Well he’s funded LFI since the 1980s, governments have come and gone. LFI don’t support a ceasefire at the moment and repost IDF tweets. It looks like he’s in tune with the state - or he’d probably fund something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 1 minute ago, bickster said: See, here we go again. Is there a source for this claim? Because quite frankly from what I know (very little) it seems like a wild wild claim and you know, is bordering on… yep that good old AS trope You’d have to ask the journo - I’m assuming this is based on a chart of cash detailing lobbyist activity. The rest of the article appeared well sourced - if anyone can shed light I’d listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 18, 2023 Just now, Jareth said: Well he’s funded LFI since the 1980s, governments have come and gone. LFI don’t support a ceasefire at the moment and repost IDF tweets. It looks like he’s in tune with the state - or he’d probably fund something else. LFI supports peace,security and a 2 state solution - that's kind of their main thing. Unsurprisingly, the LFI, which is made up of Labour MPs has the same line as Starmer and the labour party on the humanitarian pause type of stop fighting. This bloke donating in the past to them suggests he feels the same, perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 1 minute ago, blandy said: LFI supports peace,security and a 2 state solution - that's kind of their main thing. Unsurprisingly, the LFI, which is made up of Labour MPs has the same line as Starmer and the labour party on the humanitarian pause type of stop fighting. This bloke donating in the past to them suggests he feels the same, perhaps. It’s not in the past, it’s ongoing. LFI are currently active. No idea who came up with the idea not to support a ceasefire first. But yes, they are in step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 18, 2023 5 minutes ago, Jareth said: You’d have to ask the journo - I’m assuming this is based on a chart of cash detailing lobbyist activity. The rest of the article appeared well sourced - if anyone can shed light I’d listen. Well no, I don't have to but you should. You're the one using it right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 3 minutes ago, bickster said: Well no, I don't have to but you should. You're the one using it right now I’m saying I don’t know the answer - but I’m affording the article some credibility. It is difficult to fact check every point of every article you read - but it’s not some left wing loony website as far as I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 18, 2023 5 minutes ago, Jareth said: It’s not in the past, it’s ongoing. LFI are currently active. No idea who came up with the idea not to support a ceasefire first. But yes, they are in step. Oh cripes, it’s like the whole ceasefire / pause in fighting conversation never happened. I'm not going to ask you explain the difference because no one has managed to explain the difference yet LFI has the exact same line as Labour - humanitarian pause in the fighting, which correct me if I'm wrong isn’t exactly being taken on board by Israel right now, so why are LFI, Labour and Starmer saying this if Starmer has been “bought”. Has he been bought by the Humanitarian Pause in Fighting subsection of this Israeli lobby? You aren't making any sense if I'm honest 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 18, 2023 So this declassified website ran this story… Quote HALL OF SHAME: OVER 500 MPS BACK ISRAEL’S BOMBING OF GAZA Only 96 MPs in Westminster have supported a parliamentary motion calling for a ceasefire in Gaza as of 9 November. Declassified.org The entire story is that because only 96 MPs signed the EDM, the rest support the bombing of Gaza. Then I found out that Lowkey is in the board Oh and the person that wrote that utter nonsense is their Head of Communications Then there’s the article by the two lead journalist that insist that the ICC investigate Sunak, Cleverly and Shapps as the UK was involved in war crimes in Gaza (their words) in no less that seven ways, one of which was that the SAS are stationed in Cyrpus to help relocate any UK citizens held hostage by Hamas should they be liberated. That article was so full of holes it would put a Swiss cheese to shame No ta, websites full of nutjobs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 18, 2023 39 minutes ago, Jareth said: It’s not in the past, it’s ongoing. LFI are currently active. Yes I know they are ongoing. The donations are in the past. He is (I'd guess) likely to continue donating given his long terms support for their work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 1 hour ago, bickster said: Oh cripes, it’s like the whole ceasefire / pause in fighting conversation never happened. I'm not going to ask you explain the difference because no one has managed to explain the difference yet LFI has the exact same line as Labour - humanitarian pause in the fighting, which correct me if I'm wrong isn’t exactly being taken on board by Israel right now, so why are LFI, Labour and Starmer saying this if Starmer has been “bought”. Has he been bought by the Humanitarian Pause in Fighting subsection of this Israeli lobby? You aren't making any sense if I'm honest Erm - not calling for a ceasefire and not backing UN motions for a ceasefire, alongside the US, and Israel, appears to be the position. Pure coincidence I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 50 minutes ago, bickster said: So this declassified website ran this story… Declassified.org The entire story is that because only 96 MPs signed the EDM, the rest support the bombing of Gaza. Then I found out that Lowkey is in the board Oh and the person that wrote that utter nonsense is their Head of Communications Then there’s the article by the two lead journalist that insist that the ICC investigate Sunak, Cleverly and Shapps as the UK was involved in war crimes in Gaza (their words) in no less that seven ways, one of which was that the SAS are stationed in Cyrpus to help relocate any UK citizens held hostage by Hamas should they be liberated. That article was so full of holes it would put a Swiss cheese to shame No ta, websites full of nutjobs I linked to one article - which points in it were innaccurate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 18, 2023 3 minutes ago, Jareth said: Erm - not calling for a ceasefire and not backing UN motions for a ceasefire, alongside the US, and Israel, appears to be the position. Pure coincidence I'm sure. We’re talking about Labour here, just so you know, in case you didn't, they don’t have any say at the UN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 1 minute ago, bickster said: We’re talking about Labour here, just so you know, in case you didn't, they don’t have any say at the UN So they do back a ceasefire? My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 18, 2023 4 minutes ago, Jareth said: I linked to one article - which points in it were innaccurate? Well I’ve already pointed out one. I can’t be arsed pointing out any more because I'm off out to earn some money. But here’s a clue, the entire website is full of conspiracy theory nonsense. ”Declassified has found out that the USAF is flying some planes over the Med” yeah we can all use Flight Radar. There are very few sources. I mean they even called the SAS being based in Cyprus a potential war crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 18, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 18, 2023 4 minutes ago, Jareth said: So they do back a ceasefire? My bad. What the flying duck do you think a humanitarian pause in the fighting is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 18, 2023 Share Posted November 18, 2023 Just now, bickster said: What the flying duck do you think a humanitarian pause in the fighting is? If the same then why didn't the UK, US and Israel back the UN motion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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