HolteExile

Redknobb did say at the time the Walker loan was only a loan -to give him experience. But clubs often say that, Benitez was saying near identical things about Carson back in 2007. Unless it's a young player that has come through the Academy and is hugely popular with fans and management alike, I generally see such comments as merely an attempt to knock the price up, make it seem like the player is an asset -rather than someone they want to get shot of. Far more revealing was Walker's role at THFC at the time -effectively third choice behind Corluka and Hutton. That's how much Redknobb rated him. And Walker's own comments soon after signing, he said he wanted first team football- and if Villa could give it but Tottingham couldn't, he'd be happy to stay. Later - after he'd been called up to the England squad and was turning in quality performances in the topflight- the tone changed and he said himself he'd most likely be going back to Tottingham.

I won't disagree with you on those two counts. McLeish wasted his budget but he also had much more to replace. McLeish was shit, don't get me wrong but he was dealing with Houlliers disarray and his brief was somewhat different. You can't hope to replace £40mil worth of wingers with £11mil though. McLeish -like all Villa managers under RL- was backed. O'Neill was allowed to spend more than Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal during his time at the club. Houllier was allowed to bring in a forward for a club record fee. And McLeish in his one season with us, had the guts of £20 million to spend -way more than most of the league, and certainly more than the likes of Everton, Sunderland and co, who finished above us comfortably. Everton would prob do well to spend that amount in two seasons. Just because we received £38 million for Ash and Downing (and we haven't received all the Downing money yet) doesn't mean that exact amount needs to go out again to source adequate replacements. As everyone knows, we were still dealing with the consequences of MON's penchant for older, shite players on fat contracts and had made substantial losses that needed to be confronted at some point. However, against that backdrop McBoogerballs was still backed substantially. Newcastle illustrated how squad restructuring can be done with imagination. We had a retrograde MON - a guy only comfortable shopping in the domestic market as per pubehead. But with far less aptitude for getting results on the football pitch and delivering a degree of entertainment which - to his credit- MON was capable of doing. And which offset some of the downsides under his reign.

I'd be happier with that. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, he's young, would see this as a step up in his career and he wouldn't be chucking his toys out of the pram if he wasn't initially a first team regular. If he goes on to cement a place in the side and chips in with 15/20 goals per season - by all means pay the big wages THEN. Giving a proven knobend like Carroll (who couldn't even be arsed to look after himself properly at his hometown club) £60-80k per week from the outset sends out all the wrong signals. It says to the wider footballing world we deal in rejects and says to the younger players we have at the club that training and dedication to the sport is optional.

If these 'stats' are merely cack handed attempts attempts to justify poor performance -when the truth is blatantly obvious- then no! I'd never get those two minutes back. Scoring less goals than a centre half or delivering a return that only Heskey might be proud of kinda tells it's own story. He'd have to be a demon for creating assists to get away with such a poor return (he isn't). Or a major thorn in the oppositions side, giving space to our other players to exploit (he doesn't do that either).

I don't know if you've heard this but last season he was statistically our most potent attacking threat. Really? 5 goals scored last season. 3 the season before that. What stats are more relevant than these for a forward?

I like Gabby, though I'm not on board with the clichéd 'he loves the club' mantra. But it is difficult to continue to make excuses for him after two indifferent seasons. On both occasions he's had long spells to make the CF position his own- in the first half of GH's season and from Feb this year with Bent out. Yet on each occasion he has come up short. I wouldn't write him off- his form in the first 2/3 months of last season indicate what he can do. But he needs to deliver that level of performance on a far more consistent basis. There were times last season when he was just trotting about aimlessley, not looking bothered/ chasing back. I can accept a player being out of form. I'm not so crazy about a Collymore-eque lack of effort. If-when he returns from injury- we have much more of that, he has to be sent on his way. Local lad or not.

Carew and Ash were signed in his first season - when our image had taken such a battering that no decent players would even entertain notions of joining us apparently.

Those were individual names to highlight the point. Very rarely have either of those clubs been seen as a more attractive option than Villa to most neutrals. I readily accept that we don't know the individual reasons behind players having a preference or choosing one club over t' other. Do you accept that there were infinitely better options out there than Harewood, Routledge and co? Even before MON joined, as a club we had a suitably high enough profile to sign coveted players like Baros, Berger and Freddie Bouma. Are we to believe that with a new billionaire owner and a new, popular big name manager our appeal actually nosedived to such an extend that Marlon F Harewoood and Wayne Routledge were the only realistic options? :?

This is an excellent post. You are spot on in everything you say. Excellent apart from one slight oversight. We signed Stan Petrov in 2006 (supposedly when we were woefully unattractive to most half decent players) and had no problem at all in attracting a 'name' like John Carew in 2007. We also faced competition from Tottingham for the likes of Ash and Curtis Davies yet- despite being so unattractive a proposition- they opted for us. Weird, eh? So actually, no, that analysis doesn't tally with the facts at all, I'm afraid. But it is consistent with the curious mindset and low opinion some of our own fans have about the club and it's standing in the game. At a time when MON was signing the likes of Harweood and Routledge, heavy hitters like West Ham and Blakburn were signing the likes of Bellamy, Parker and RSC. Is the appeal of those clubs genuinely greater than ours?

It's impossible to say that with any degree of certainty. It would have greatly improved our chances, true. But most ref's would be reluctant to dish out the red card in the very early stages of a match, especially in a cup final. I don't think Dowd is particularly unusual in that regard. It would take a serious leg busting challenge -a challenge so bad they had little alternative- to force the issue. As it was, there was an element of doubt. Also, United did actually have a player sent off when they played us at VP just a month prior to that - and they still bossed the game.

What do you think realistically could have been achieved, who do you think would have managed it, and would they have come to us in the position we were in? Ability wise- we weren't a million miles off Everton (who had finished 4th in 2005) and the sides who had qualified for Europe when he took the job in 2006. Sorenson, Bouma, Laursen, Mellberg, Barry and Baros provided a decent core to the side (admittedly Laursen had been unavailable for most of DOL's stint with us). During his time with us, we outspent the likes of Liverpool, Arsenal and Man U, a fact often overlooked in discussions such as these. In 2008 alone we were the 2 or 3rd nd highest spenders in Europe. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that a manager who could have utilised such an advantage with more imagination and more value (ie a manager who didn't proceed to buy two new back four's in two seasons) *might* have got us closer to a breakthrough in 2009 and 2010. Yet you and others constantly seek to frame his time with us as a fight against the odds, the plucky underdog. It's understandable, I suppose. The media fawned over him to a similar degree in Scotland, despite him signing the likes of Chris Sutton and John Hartson, for fees that were on a par with with the biggest spenders in England at the time. I think I bought into the myth too, that here was a man who could deliver more with less. But his time with us proved him to be very mortal. As to who could have achieved the breakthrough under similar conditions, Moyes did it with less at Everton in 2005 Redknapp did it with a similar budget in 2010. He had also delivered an FA Cup win during his stint with Pompey- something I think most of us here would have readily accepted at some point during 2006-2010. That may have put MON into the 'great' bracket. Top 6 and one losing cup final would be just about par for the money spent. Under par when considering home form -the most immediate link and barometer paying spectators use when considering the club's fortunes. Would they have come? Purely theoretical, of course- but pre coin-throwing incident I think there is a better than average chance that Redknapp would have accepted the job in either 2006 or 2007, aye. Moyes had discussions in 2010 and 2011. Two thing's that scuppered the deal is Everton (understandably) wanting a fairly hefty release fee and Moyes not getting the type of transfer budget that made leaving Everton worthwhile. But he was curious enough to at least discuss the proposal. Would things have been different had we asked in 2006 and 2007 - before MON obliterated large swathes of Lerner's money on Curtis Davies, Carlos Cuellar, Steve Sidwell, Shorey, Habib Beye, Stephen Warnock, Harewood, Heskey and co -and that small fortune was available to him instead? I'd say there's a distinct possibility, yeah. And those are only the two obvious names - if we are employing MON's myopic approach to recruitment. Who's to say a candidate from beyond these shores couldn't have got more value from the guts of £200 million?

I agree with that. Though I don't think he's even good enough for a top 6 side now. A good manager, certainly. I'd argue with anyone who said otherwise. Managers like Curbishley at West Ham and Dalglish during his stint at Newcastle spend shitloads for very little return. O'Neill did make us competitive during his time here and three top six finishes illustrate that. But if we are acclaiming him as 'great' then so to is John Gregory. And I don't ever recall that being said about Grecian 2000 during his stint with us. In fact, the pair of them had a number of similarities -an over reliance on British based players, often paying over the odds for players and serving up sterile football despite the money spent.

Forgive me for asking what seems such an obvious question - but if he is a great manager, why on earth is he at Sunderland? Maybe the decision makers at the better clubs don't agree with you?

Perhaps. But hoping three or four of that lot will all recapture their form of three years ago is a bit much- even for such a renowned genius/ miracle worker as MON clearly is (sarcasm). One might, I would doubt they all can. They are all pushing or over 30 now, and the player who held that fourth best defence in the league together then (Dunne) has gradually been getting fatter, slower and more error prone. In the case of Collins and Warnock, they have served up two seasons of tripe now so I don't see how we can refuse any reasonable bids. Unless Magic Martin in his time away from football has cracked the code for the flux capacitor, I think we'll be quite okay to dispatch that pair to the footballing graveyard that is Slumberland.

Don't see the point in the huge outlay it would take to land the Divvy Ponytail at all. But if he goes back to Newcastle I'd definitely take Ba off their hands. Personally I think they'd be mad to sell him but (a) he does have a release clause ( Fat Mike will want to balance the books in terms of wages and fees if he does bring Carroll back. I could have seen him going to Tottingham, but with 'arry gone I don't think that's as likely now. Concerns over his fitness/ the failed medical at Stoke might put off the very best clubs. But during his time at West Ham and Newcastle I don't think he's missed many games, and certainly didn't play like he's nursing an injury. If we do have to go the target man/ tall forward route, then I'd prefer to see us go with someone like Rhodes - a player on the up, who would see a move to Villa as a step up and would be determined to give his absolute maximum to make a go of things here. For a player like Carroll, I get the distinct impression that we'd merely be his latest stopping off point, a chance to come here and poodle for a bit and pick up a fat wedge. As an option from the bench, it's far more likely that a younger player or player from the Championship would initially accept not being a guaranteed starter. Bent>Ba>Rhodes as forward options for (possibly) only the loss of Gabby would be a big improvement in our options up top compared to the end of last season. Sign a player like Carroll and for the fee and wages involved he'd need to start every game- whether his form justifies it or not.

Cheers OP. Understand your frustration. As a token of goodwill. please accept any one from Hutton, Warnock, Collins and Dunne. I would say take them all, but I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

I don't have any issue with Norwich as a club at all -even in their recent dealings with us. I also wouldn't have a huge issue with them getting some kind of settlement/ payout in all this. But not many people with business savy would make a payment that wasn't required. And if Culverhouse and Karsa were out of contract that's exactly how it looks. I have to say that some of the stuff I have heard of Norwich fans in recent weeks - clogging up phone in's and even coming on Villa websites to let us all know that this is a sideways move at best for PL and how he's nailed on to walk out on us- has been comedy gold though.

It's one thing for a kit to look a bit shit on an out of shape and podgy football supporter. It's quite an achievement to make a kit look ill fitting and shit on professional athletes. Well done Macron.

What, our success has gone to our heads because we don't think we should just roll over and let an (admittedly slightly bigger) club who we finished above last season poach all of our management team for no compensation? You guys would have reacted exactly the same if the boot was on the other foot and I have no doubt you will do when lambert walks out on you at some point in the future. Thanks for underlining his point. Slightly bigger club? Pur-leese. As for your second paragraph, wishing it won't make it so. Unfortunately. It's a numbers game, there are probably only about 5 genuinely bigger jobs than the Villa one in this country (admittedly a few are about par). Unlike Norwich, where there are probably about 20-25 odd clubs with better resources, infrastructure and fanbases. The last manager to leave us and go on to better things was Graham Taylor way back in 1990. Since then, names like BFR, O'Leary and O'Neill - all of whom were/are big names in the game and arrived with decent reputations- found their career heading in a downward trajectory on leaving VP. Two of those three were a long, long way from failures during their time here too. It's just they didn't do anywhere near enough to land one of the few jobs bigger in this country than the Villa one.* Maybe Lambert will buck the trend in that regard. But I can't honestly see him being considered by the likes of Man U, Arsenal and co anytime soon. If he does though, it will mean he's done an incredible job here so -unlike you bitter lot- I think most of us would acknowledge that and wish him well. *BFR had already managed Man U, of course.

Same. I've long accepted that we're out of the running for top 4 and the like- at least for the forseeable. But whatever manager came in, I felt it was important to at least move in the right direction vis a vis passing, movement off the ball and so on. Set the wheels in motion, as it were. Stoke, B-lose and even ourselves under MON might have had a degree success in getting surprise results and disrupting the flow of better sides with less possession of the ball. But ultimately, the sides who see more of the ball tend to win more games and occupy the higher positions in the league. There is no getting away from that. So a Laudrup, OGS, Martinez or similar would have been preferable in that regard. I like Lambert, and certainly don't think we'll see some of the heinous anti football that was on display last year. But I get the impression PL will have no problem in lumping it long in the latter stages of a game if we're getting little joy trying to play through sides. I think he'll be quite happy to grind out games with less than spectacular football too, as per MON. It strikes me he'd actually get a kick out of that. Laudrup, Martinez and co don't resort to the hoof if their initial strategy isn't working- they persist until their sides eventually do find an opening. Most have accepted that next year will be one of those infamous 'seasons of transition,' so if ever there was scope to wear a few bad results as we try to move in the right direction it's now. It does concern me that Laudrup has only remained at most of his clubs post Brondby for one season though. Lambert might be a better long term fit from that point of view- and better at laying down the law to some of our pisstakers who need to be taken down a peg or two. If they felt they could coast again as the next manager will most likely only be here for one campaign, that really wouldn't help us at all.

Always thought he was a decent keeper before he came to Villa. but it was only last season I appreciated how good he actually was. You get this shit bandied about from time to time, a goalie being a good shotstopper but not a necessarily a great keeper, the inference being that too many other parts of his game are suspect. So suspect in fact, that they take away from his plus points. Shay Given is a phenomenal shot stopper. The best we've had since Bosnich. Like Bossie, there were a number of occasions last season when the opposition were through and I thought "that's a goal," and he pulled off a remarkable save. It was more than the odd game, or for a short period too. It was too consistent to be a fluke. A phenomenal shot stopper - and quite comfortable at all other aspects of his job too, kicking, communication with the backline and so forth. There might be other keepers who are noticeably louder or more animated, but nothing in his performances last year marked out a potential match altering weakness in that regard. He's had a shit Euro's, owing to lack of fitness and shit tactics as much as anything else. And his fitness is a longstanding concern for me, as he does seem to pick up more knocks than most keepers. But if we get anything like last seasons performances again this year I'll be delighted. It'll mean GK is one position we don't have to worry about.

It must clash with some of these fashion victim's shoes and handbags. Alternatively, it might be that some Villa fans don't like to see their team decked out in a shit West Ham circa 90's effort. The oddballs.

Or maybe- like Whelan- he just has the memory of a goldfish? When he appointed Lambert in 09 we had just had a season when we were in the top 4 for the bulk of the campaign. In 2010 we took the challenge to the penultimate weekend and arguably went even closer. That's before even considering the 130 odd years of history before that. But two poor seasons = we cease to be a big club? Okay. There might be some figures at bigger football clubs capable of making such a sneering statement. I don't think the likes of Whelan and McNally are in that position, frankly. Just small-time Charlies, looking to maximise their 15 minutes of fame with bombastic 'look at me!' comments.

Cheers KA. Best wishes for the new season. Who would you like to see come in as Lambert's replacement?