HolteExile

Historically the clubs are roughly on a par. But they've been playing poor mouth for god knows how long. So two similar sized clubs but one being in a better financial position to progress than the other? I'd say that might in most circumstances qualify as a step up, yes. Would be my take on things.

I think POB was taking the Michael in fairness. Keane isn't British, as per his namesake Roy, Dickie Dunne, Duff or any of the others born within the 26 counties. Tony Cascarino and Andy Townsend might be though.

Yowzers. Geography not being someone's stong point, fair enough. Knowing the status of your own country and the countries around you? That would be primary school stuff, I'd have thought. Just to really break dudevillaisnice,'s mind: People from Northern Ireland are also officially British subjects - yet they can claim Irish or British citizenship. People from Wales (the Welsh) derive their name from the writer of the same name. Notorious for not paying up on a lost bet, the term 'to Welsh' on a deal has been in common usage from this period. One of these statements may be made up.

Most of the fans I know are still behind him (and will be gutted when he leaves) and blame Kenwright over anyone for our problems. There are some who are against him but there is always some fans who he'll never win over - same with pretty much every manager though. Ah how cute, you have a manager whose doing it for the fans. Sorry AG but thats just the kind of nonsense that players,managers, chairmen, whoever just come out with these days, it means very little. Moyes is hardly allowed to say anything else, anything else would be seen as mutinous. FWIW I know its Kenwright to blame for your woes, well Kenwright and your own fans in campaigning against a new stadium. But a time must come when both Everton and Moyes come to the conclusion that they'd be better off apart. Moyes has taken your team as far as he can (probably anyone can) given his severe lack of resources. Your club is strapped for cash, with Moyes only signing a new deal last year he does actually have some value and your team may actually need some fresh ideas soon plus Moyes must know the writing is on the wall for that squad soon enough unless he gets some decent chunk of investment. Sometimes there could be a mutually beneficial thing going on. I don't know whether this is the time for Moyes to jump but never say nevr. Things can change quickly in football though Bicks. Who's to say that Everton won't get the new owner they've been crying out for this year, or another investor as per that Las Vegas bloke. I do think there is the very real possibility that Moyes might be off if he doesn't get suitable financial backing this summer mind. I don't think he'd want to entertain the notion of another season like this, expected to deliver what Everton fans expect despite a budget that only allows free deals like the Beckford one et.c We need to make sure we're even in this division first and foremost, before we could even entertain any notions of poaching other managers. At present, there is as probably as much chance that Darren Bent will be plying his trade at Goodsion next year (following a cut price sale from a relegated Villa) as there is of Moyes being our manager.

In fairness, he's saying all the right things and was even magnanimous to a degree over the Dunne and Collins issue. Talk is cheap, of course. And whether he's reading from a pre prepared script, I'm not sure. But for the first time in a long while he sounds like he actually (a) realizes the stature of the club he is (fortunate to still be) managing and ( realizes the gravity of the situation Unlike some, I think Everton is an eminently winnable game, particularly with the amount of injuries they have (sound familiar?) He needs to start earning his corn though, and get the players all pulling in the right direction. Do that, and we'll be safe this year.

Leadership comes from the top though. If overall performance wasn't dependant on managers -if football players (or indeed anyone in regular work) were autonomous to the point whereby managers were close to irrelevant, the concept would have been done away with a long time ago.

Couldn't see MON at Spurzzz either. What a comedown that would be for them. Think the next gig he gets in football will be somewhere like QPR if they come up - say if Warnock has a 'mare in the first half of the season and they bring him in around Christmas. Would suit him down to the ground, he could make out his side were underdogs whilst lavishing millions in transfer fees and wages. Don't think any of the top clubs will go anywhere near him. Moyes might well consider his future, but I'll be absolutely amazed if Bolton form any part of that future. I'd say that's pretty harsh on Everton too, suggesting a move from them to Bolton would be a sideways step.

lexi just said laudrups record so no thanks, another houllier.. Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Laudrup is closer to the start of his managerial career. It wouldn't surprise me if this is GH's last gig in football management. He was virtually semi retired when we hired him. Not sure of those stats either, for one thing: I'm pretty certain Laudrup (who has been with Mallorca since the start of the season) has managed them for more than 5 games. Also: Even if that win ratio was close to accurate for Getafe, that's pretty good for a team that is one of the minnows of Spanish football - particularly back then. I can only trust the judgement of my own eyes but when I was in Barcelona in 2008 I wanted to take in a match and watched the Barca/ Getafe match. Thought it would be a nice, easy fixture - and plenty of goals. Henry, Messi and all the rest of it in the Barca line up. Yet Getafe were the better side in a 0-0 draw. Was a decent contest too, it's not as if Getafe killed the game and set up for a point. And as Jonsop mentions, he got Getafe to the UEFA QF's that year. So combined with his earlier trophy laden sting at Brondby - and the fact that he's still only 46- I wouldn't be against the idea. FWIW I think we'll go for a British manager next time though. Hughes or Moyes would be my bet.

And yet. And yet. Maybe it will feature in the thinking of the next manager. Maybe. But then we've had all the above managers + MON and Houllier want to take the job on, so I'd say as a priority it comes under 'not much of a' for them, and there's some pretty high profile names in that list. I don't recall many of those outside of O'Leary and GT post 03/03/03 coming in for widespread stick, certainly not from stands. And if you're offering phone in's and messageboards as conclusive proof you're definitely on shaky ground. Even Fergie, Ancelloti and other managers who've actually won things for their clubs have had nutjobs phoning in demanding their dismissal. I don't think we're better or worse than any other fans in the country. Newcastle fans were angrily chanting 'you don't know what you're doing' at Allardyce after 2/3 months. I well recall the 'Ta ra Fergie' banner that made an appearance at Old Trafford (during the game) in the 1989/90 season too. No, we're no worse than any other fans. We just seem to have a few who like to put the boot into fellow supporters with a bit more regularity than possibly happens at other clubs. Maybe it dates back to the divisive nature of the latter years under Ellis, I don't know.

I hope you're joking. Remember what happened this season when we signed Ireland after getting rid of the manager. The last thing we need is another pre-season when we sign players that our recently sacked manager wanted and the new one might not. Get a new man in now, give him 8 games to assess the WHOLE squad and then let him have the pre-season to sort everything out. Houllier has no backing from our current players despite recent reports, which is easy to see from our performances. The best thing is to try and sort out the short-term now. I would love GH's long-term vision to come true however if it means spending a season (or more) in the Championship then I am out. Our club would be decimated if we went down and RL would probably look to sell up and move on. For me the pro's of sacking GH far outweigh the cons and we stand as much, if not more chance, of going down with him "in charge" than sacking him and replacing him with Jol or Benitez. Hard to disagree with any of that.

Coyle hasn't done enough in the game as a manager to make me think he'd be a good long term option for us. Gregory was mentioned earlier and he strikes me as being in a similar phase as JG's early stint with us. It's all looking great at the moment but it's way to early to call. Plus, as bad as we've been this season, we should probably have hammered his side 8-3 at their place. Not convinced.

As we've seen though, bringing in a manager who has been out of the loop or so long can have disastrous consequences (the exception to the rule seems to be Dalglish). JG hasn't managed in the top flight since he took Derby down in 2002 - so he even predates GH who departed Liverpool in 2004. Also, he wasn't particularly hot even at his peak (unlike GH) so I'm not sure I'd want to chance him being even worse. Player power was rampant back when GH and JG were enjoying their most productive years in management - but it's got even worse now. A manager out of the loop wouldn't necessarily know that. A manager still (or very recently) involved would. The game has also got a fair bit quicker, as GH mentioned back in Oct/ Nov. Managers -like players- have a shelf life. The best, like Fergiesum, will always find a way of staying current and keeping abreast of things. But for others, they have their brief window in time when their ideas of approach have relevance and that's it. I loved the BFR years, as I did the Brian Little era. But I wouldn't want either of those back managing the club. Or even Ron Saunders for that matter.

We say this but the names floating around when quitter quit suggest otherwise.. Could it be that other managers valued their reputation enough not to walk out on their side at the start of the season.. Hughes had just gone to Fulham (after apparently waiting for us as news of MON's interest in the Liverpool job was circulating in the game as far back as March) so that was a non starter. Jol had just ensured qualification to the CL group stages and secured backing after Fulham had enquired about him though he did say something along the lines of 'Villa will have to wait' rather than giving a flat out no. And Moyes had just convinced a number of Everton players to sign extended contracts on the basis that he too would be there for the foreseeable. How would it look if he had bailed so soon after? Those were the names that were widely touted and -according to the General- we contacted all the usual names. It's the timing more than anything else that did for us back then. The consequences of which we're still living with now.

Hated him as a Villa manager -and I use the word hate deliberately. But he -like Evans- played a big part in our good form under Sir Brian. JG was the foil to the more measured, slightly necrotic BL. JG was one of the lads, a players coach - and it's no accident that he got a decent response when he came back initially. When he had money to spend he was largely a nightmare though. That bright opening in 1998 aside, he presided over some of the most tepid, dull safety first football it has ever been my misfortune to endure, the nadir of which being not even mustering a shot on target v Chelsea in the 2000 Cup Final. I still haven't watched highlights of that game and I have no intention of doing so. He had put many supporters off long before that, I lost count of the amount of long term season ticket holders around me who had given up the ghost during his tenure. He also set the template for previously unheard of managers enjoying their 15 minutes of fame with his rent a quote approach -since equalled (and possibly bettered) by Phil Orange and Holloway. If only his football had been as spicy as some of his press conferences. But JG as an assistant did a decent job for us. That should never be overlooked. I don't think his ego would allow him to play second fiddle to anyone now though.

Mentioned earlier in the thread that Hughes would be one of my first choices should we stay up in the summer (couldn't see him taking the risk and walking prior to that in all honesty). But a few points to consider: 1. McCleish? I know, I know. But think about it. One thing he should be able to sort out if nothing else is the defence. It would also have the added bonus of detestablising that lot at a time when they can least afford it. Two birds, one stone. If we go down -and that's a distinct possibility now- he'd also be a decent bet to get us straight back up. Make no mistake about it, if he was approached I reckon he'd go for it. He was asked at the start of the season would he be interested in the Villa job and rather than give a flat out 'not interested, got a job to do here' he gave a lot of waffle about not wanting to talk about hypothetical situations and so forth. 2. Another (minor) plus in the Allardyce column would be his relationship with Warnock at Blackburn. He knows him, and helped get the best form out of him there, resulting in an England call up Player of the Season award and eventual big money move to us. I know Warnock has burnt his bridges in the eyes of many here, but I've never heard him publicly slate the club. We only have MM and a few other ITK's to go on (I don't actually doubt them BTW), so there could be a route back if he shows willing. Forget any of that nonsense about forcing players to move closer to Brum, to me that just seemed like sabre rattling. Alan Wright was one of our longest serving players and he made the commute from the NW, ditto Paul McGrath. It takes what, an hour/ hour 10 minutes at that time of day? In the position we're in we can't afford to be pissing off and alienating players, that's just the simple reality of the situation.

In the short-term: Kevin Mac. I don't see any half decent established manager risking his reputation on a side who could go down. Then: If we stay up Hughes or Jol If we go down Lambert

New poll?

It would be nice if it had clicked straight away. But I'm sure he'd have kept many more supporters on board if there had even been just a few more obvious examples of progression. And by that, I don't mean overseeing slightly better results in recent games than he did at his absolute worst around Christmas/ early New Year. I mean progression on last year or the last few years. Mowbray-esque possession football in non threatening areas doesn't really qualify as such. Up and down results in a season of transition are by no means unusual. But it has to be said there has been far more down than up this season. And no real evidence that we are addressing (or even attempting to address) what has been our Achilles heel this year - the defence. That for me is the biggest frustration/ concern in all of this.

Just a small point, but GT was by no means an outside choice when we got him, indeed he was quite a coup. He'd got Watford promoted from the fourth division to the first in five years, and had them finishing as high as 2nd in the top division + managed a cup final in 1984. All this, and he was still only in his mid 40's when he joined us in 1987. According to BFR, he was Bobby Charlton's choice to replace him at Man U in the mid 80's, so it was by no means 'taking a punt' on a rookie manager or suchlike.

Go for me, at the end of the season -which equates to stay the way this poll is laid out. Could do with modifying.

Some recent medical issues, hope he is OK (the General that is).

Keep him, on the proviso that he wins every single game against teams below us in the table between now and the end of the season. I make that Wolves, West Ham, WBA and Wigan. That should do it. Now rationality and football being football tells you such a predictable outcome in all those games is unlikely. But: We can't possibly target victories against sides above us, or who have spent more (copyright GH, 2011) so we need to maximise every game against lesser sides from this point onwards. This is how football works, according to the master motivator. So if he can't even deliver what he believes is the norm, the industry standard, he'll have no arguments when it becomes time to collect his cards. Can't have it both ways Ged. The expiry date for that type of limited and self defeatist thinking will hopefully be May 22nd, when he'll then be either moved upstairs (to do what I'm not sure) or just -preferably- moved on altogether.

Yeah like Liverpool too, and look how that worked out. Oh wait a second... Come to think of it, even laughing stock Newcastle with all their upheaval and with a poorer squad are currently above us. A further illustration of the below par job GH is doing.

Indeed. Just illustrates the peculiarities and nature of politics in Ireland, particularly in the North. People in glass houses and all that. 80 years in the grand scheme of things isn't huge in the history timeline either, with descendants of figureheads from the War of Independence and Civil War era still active in politics south of the border. Indeed, that's probably just about the only thing some have going for them, trading on their name or the deeds of their Grandparents.

Never is a long time. They'll be tainted goods to many down south -even now. But the challenge for them is to present themselves as credible, leftwing opposition over the next 4/5 years and move away from Tiocfaidh ár lá / slogan politics. Whatever else he's been, Gerry Adams has been one of the most effective politicians these islands has produced, even if he and his mates just don't ring true quite often. As Peter Robinson said a few years back: "You can give a terrorist a suit and a mobile phone - he's still a terrorist." Don't want to delve into that whole hornets nest, but what I will say is that with the benefit of time, the events of the late 60's-80's in the North will be less relevant to the majority of voters in the south. Candidates like Mary Lou McDonald and Pearse Doherty seem like able, respectable politicians in their own right and are probably the future of SF. One of them as party leader - if they prove their credentials vis a vis realpolitik- would possibly be more palatable to voters in the south than Adams, and could lead to a scenario where the main parties can't continue to overlook them when it comes to coalitions and so forth. It can't be ignored either that both FF and FG are a product of the painful birth pangs of the Irish Free State - after armed struggle. Before they too felt the conditions were right to go the route of the ballotbox.