smetrov Posted February 23, 2013 Author Share Posted February 23, 2013 There is an in-between. I wasn't advocating doing what QPR ddid. No I appreciate that, but I was genuinely pleased that having heard Sissoko wanted 70k, we didnt sign him. I think our position is a lot more precarious than QPR's Half of my problem with the spending is that I believe Lamberts biggest weakness is his transfers. in what way ? - Money owed to the bank ? - or the probability of relegation ? Some of the worlds biggest clubs run at a loss. If Randy wasn't prepared to finance a premier club, why did he get involved ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 There is an in-between. I wasn't advocating doing what QPR ddid. No I appreciate that, but I was genuinely pleased that having heard Sissoko wanted 70k, we didnt sign him. I think our position is a lot more precarious than QPR's Half of my problem with the spending is that I believe Lamberts biggest weakness is his transfers. in what way ? - Money owed to the bank ? - or the probability of relegation ? Some of the worlds biggest clubs run at a loss. If Randy wasn't prepared to finance a premier club, why did he get involved ? Money. Oh dear at the final sentence. A true picture of where football is. If the bloke at the top isnt losing money hes a clearing in the woods. (although I appreciate they arent your exact words). The man at Everton - total arsehole because hes not absolutely loaded!! It has absolutely zero chance of changing whilst fans have this attitude. It has absolutely zero chance of changing full stop tbh. That was evident when Liverpool somehow didnt go into administration. An utter disgrace that they were allowed to trade in that state. Something us and many other clubs wouldnt have been able to get away with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 What a nonsense. We need more experience, not higher earners. Rubbish thread. Do experienced players at this level come as cheap as the likes of Lowton and Westwood wage wise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted February 23, 2013 Author Share Posted February 23, 2013 I guess a lot of this will depend on whether we reinvest the money made from selling Benteke + any others. We could be looking at £20-£30m overall and we should hopefully have the likes of Given, Dunne, Hutton, Bent and Ireland off the wage bill too. Yes we will have those players off the wage bill. But they will need replacing if we ever return to the prem - replace them with academy kids, or league one players and we are back where we are. IMO - until we accept we a wage bill of around £50 - £60m, we will continue to go backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I guess a lot of this will depend on whether we reinvest the money made from selling Benteke + any others. We could be looking at £20-£30m overall and we should hopefully have the likes of Given, Dunne, Hutton, Bent and Ireland off the wage bill too. Yes we will have those players off the wage bill. But they will need replacing if we ever return to the prem - replace them with academy kids, or league one players and we are back where we are. IMO - until we accept we a wage bill of around £50 - £60m, we will continue to go backwards. True, but I think the issue is that a lot of our big earners don't even play that often/aren't very good. Guzan is a very good goalkeeper and we don't need a back-up goalkeeper sitting on 50k a week for example. We could get rid of Ireland and bring in somebody twice as good on probably half the wages. As long as those wages are mostly reinvested on quality first teamers then I think it'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted February 23, 2013 Author Share Posted February 23, 2013 There is an in-between. I wasn't advocating doing what QPR ddid. No I appreciate that, but I was genuinely pleased that having heard Sissoko wanted 70k, we didnt sign him. I think our position is a lot more precarious than QPR's Half of my problem with the spending is that I believe Lamberts biggest weakness is his transfers. in what way ? - Money owed to the bank ? - or the probability of relegation ? Some of the worlds biggest clubs run at a loss. If Randy wasn't prepared to finance a premier club, why did he get involved ? Money. Oh dear at the final sentence. A true picture of where football is. If the bloke at the top isnt losing money hes a clearing in the woods. (although I appreciate they arent your exact words). The man at Everton - total arsehole because hes not absolutely loaded!! It has absolutely zero chance of changing whilst fans have this attitude. It has absolutely zero chance of changing full stop tbh. That was evident when Liverpool somehow didnt go into administration. An utter disgrace that they were allowed to trade in that state. Something us and many other clubs wouldnt have been able to get away with. So we are in worse position than QPR financially ? (Im not disagreeing - I just didn't think that was the case) Everton and WBA are probably amongst the best run clubs, of achieving a lot with a little. But they are the exceptions, and i wouldn't bet against Albion struggling in the next season or two - and Everton after Moyes departs ? I don't see what fans attitudes have to do with it to be honest. IMO you have a better chance of success with a bigger wage bill. Yes there's QPR struggling with a huge wage bill, and Everton doing really well on a small one. But that financial muscle helps - and lets forget Randy has the cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted February 23, 2013 Author Share Posted February 23, 2013 I guess a lot of this will depend on whether we reinvest the money made from selling Benteke + any others. We could be looking at £20-£30m overall and we should hopefully have the likes of Given, Dunne, Hutton, Bent and Ireland off the wage bill too. Yes we will have those players off the wage bill. But they will need replacing if we ever return to the prem - replace them with academy kids, or league one players and we are back where we are. IMO - until we accept we a wage bill of around £50 - £60m, we will continue to go backwards. True, but I think the issue is that a lot of our big earners don't even play that often/aren't very good. Guzan is a very good goalkeeper and we don't need a back-up goalkeeper sitting on 50k a week for example. We could get rid of Ireland and bring in somebody twice as good on probably half the wages. Its a squad game nowadays - When did Arshavin last play for Arsenal ? - Newcastle recently sold someone for next to nowt who cost £7m and rarely played a game. Whilst I take your point, I think the argument is overstated at Villa. A slight aside, I would use the youth policy as revenue stream - sell the players earlier for £1 - £2m a time. a few seasons ago we could have probably got fee's for Albrighton, Bannan, now IMO they are worth nothing - Use that money to fund better players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 It is a squad game and we can't afford players that are barely good enough for the squad (e.g. Ireland) sitting on 60k a week. If you actually look at every main position of our squad you'll find that our highest paid player in that position is at best a squad player. Goalkeeper: Best - Guzan Highest paid - Given Full-back: Best - Lowton Highest paid - Hutton Centre-back: Best - Vlaar Highest paid - Dunne Centre midfield: Best - Not sure to be fair, but definitely not Ireland Highest paid - Ireland Wing: Best - N'Zogbia/Gabby Highest paid - Gabby Striker: Best - Benteke Highest paid - Bent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted February 23, 2013 Author Share Posted February 23, 2013 It is a squad game and we can't afford players that are barely good enough for the squad (e.g. Ireland) sitting on 60k a week. If you actually look at every main position of our squad you'll find that our highest paid player in that position is at best a squad player. Goalkeeper: Best - Guzan Highest paid - Given Full-back: Best - Lowton Highest paid - Hutton Centre-back: Best - Vlaar Highest paid - Dunne Centre midfield: Best - Not sure to be fair, but definitely not Ireland Highest paid - Ireland Wing: Best - N'Zogbia/Gabby Highest paid - Gabby Striker: Best - Benteke Highest paid - Bent I can't disagree with that analysis Mantis. We have highly paid players, playing poorly or not even playing at all. I would still argue that the way forward is better players incoming, they will cost, and now and then they will fall on there arse - and they stay because no one else wants them at that salary. I can't see a way of that not happening in the future. Equally if we don't take the chance on purchasing better players in the first place - we are going to be as bad if not worse off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Not all managers are as bad in the transfer market as O'Neill and McLeish are. I'm not advocating us only going in for players that will demand very low wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Not all managers are as bad in the transfer market as O'Neill and McLeish are. I'm not advocating us only going in for players that will demand very low wages. Lamberts worse imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 What a nonsense. We need more experience, not higher earners. Rubbish thread. Do experienced players at this level come as cheap as the likes of Lowton and Westwood wage wise? Not the point. The OP is actively calling for high earners regardless of ability which is stupid. I'd rather a Lowton than a Beye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villarocker Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 We do need to get rid of a lot of players though. We have a back-up goalkeeper on 50k a week, Dunne's been sitting on 50k a week yet he hasn't kicked a ball for us this season. Ireland is on something like 60k a week when he's hardly playing and probably only worth about a tenth of what he's on (he's shit). Bent clearly isn't in the manager's plans so there's no point having your highest earner warming the bench. The problem wasn't that we were trying to shift these players but that we didn't spend big in January. Clearly Lerner wants these players gone before we can get in anymore players who will play for more than peanuts and that's where he's got it wrong. I just dont understand how you can say he has got it wrong in January. Hes got it absolutely bang on. The biggest mistake Randy lerner made was giving O'Neill the reigns and spending shitloads. He has learnt from that mistake and people jump on his back for doing the opposite. We are not suffering from Randys lack of spending. We are suffering from the mess he and O'Neill made - when ironically (given the nature of this thread) we brought in high earners. Because we desperately needed some quality (or at least some semi-decent players) yet clearly we just don't have the wages. Sylla and Dawkins probably aren't even on 25k combined. I agree with you that the biggest mistake he gave was giving O'Neill a free-reign, but I never said that Lerner's cost-cutting policy was wrong, just that it was wrong to not spend much money this January. Well surely spending money would go against the cost cutting policy that you agree is right? I genuinely believe some people (Not you btw) still dont fully understand the shocking position we were in financially. When you consider the clubs who have been in similar positions - Leeds/Pompy/West Ham, I think it is a positive that we havent already been relegated. When you consider the necessary cost cutting that was needed/has happened it seems almost impossible to think we could have been any better than we have been - though bad manager/player choices havent helped there either. Is there a club people can think of that have gone under extreme cost cutting policies that havent dropped like a stone? Valencia? Sometimes spending a little more money can save money in the long run. The TV money goes up next year and I'm pretty sure being relegated will cost us big time. We didn't necessarily need to go out and spend like we did two years ago (Bent and Makoun) but we did need some reinforcements and we didn't really get them. Bang on, Mantis! Vlaar has been injury prone for a long time and we all knew how our defence was without him. That was the area where we should not have ignored. I am not saying we should have gone out and paid £100k per week wages for crap like Samba. I am saying that we could have hunted down a Jagielka type from the Championship who could have 4-5 million and come in on £30k per week. To me, that was negligence by the club, whether it be Lerner for not funding or Lambert for not sussing someone out. To be fair though, our defence didn't look much better with Vlaar back. I actually thought it looked better yesterday, ironically he wasn't playing. How many more performances we get like that is anybody's guess, and that's the problem. We needed someone experienced at playing that role to come in to the team and make us more solid. It didn't mean they had to have massive wages and cost mega money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Not all managers are as bad in the transfer market as O'Neill and McLeish are. I'm not advocating us only going in for players that will demand very low wages. Lamberts worse imo Only player he's spent a substantial amount of money on was Benteke and look how that turned out. Apart from that, his signings have all been very cheap, and even Benteke isn't paid as much as the likes of Hutton. It's not just about buying quality players, it's about buying them at reasonable prices and wages and in that respect O'Neill and McLeish were colossal failures - fair enough, most of Lambert's signings have been pretty poor but given the amount he's spent per player I think it's more understandable than MON (to a certain extent) and McLeish s transfer fuckups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 I guess a lot of this will depend on whether we reinvest the money made from selling Benteke + any others. We could be looking at £20-£30m overall and we should hopefully have the likes of Given, Dunne, Hutton, Bent and Ireland off the wage bill too. And who will Lambert buy to replace these players ? Players from the lower divisions......Its not working so far ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr600rr Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 MONEY.. right we are where are..bottom 3.. JANUARY.. randy would not pay 70k a week to sissoko..newcastle did & the boy has made a difference. avfc..PL brought in two players on lets say £10k a week each, have they made a difference? have they done as sissoko? NO so were 20k a week down..right we all know dunne if off at the end of year saving £50k.. i think its going to bite us hard on the arse not paying the going rate with sisokko big spending.. days are gone,correct..so while we WERE watching top players/earners the price of season tickets rose..now the dynamic duo of RL/PF have decided to down tools will this mean the cost cutting will happen to our season tickets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 MONEY.. right we are where are..bottom 3.. JANUARY.. randy would not pay 70k a week to sissoko..newcastle did & the boy has made a difference. avfc..PL brought in two players on lets say £10k a week each, have they made a difference? have they done as sissoko? NO so were 20k a week down..right we all know dunne if off at the end of year saving £50k.. i think its going to bite us hard on the arse not paying the going rate with sisokko big spending.. days are gone,correct..so while we WERE watching top players/earners the price of season tickets rose..now the dynamic duo of RL/PF have decided to down tools will this mean the cost cutting will happen to our season tickets? I doubt Dawkins is on 10k per week. But your general point is spot on - the difference we paid for sylla v sissokko is nominal - especially to a guy of Randy's wealth.Considering the impact of relegation it shows how futile Randy's cost control is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbr600rr Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 MONEY.. right we are where are..bottom 3.. JANUARY.. randy would not pay 70k a week to sissoko..newcastle did & the boy has made a difference. avfc..PL brought in two players on lets say £10k a week each, have they made a difference? have they done as sissoko? NO so were 20k a week down..right we all know dunne if off at the end of year saving £50k.. i think its going to bite us hard on the arse not paying the going rate with sisokko big spending.. days are gone,correct..so while we WERE watching top players/earners the price of season tickets rose..now the dynamic duo of RL/PF have decided to down tools will this mean the cost cutting will happen to our season tickets? I doubt Dawkins is on 10k per week. But your general point is spot on - the difference we paid for sylla v sissokko is nominal - especially to a guy of Randy's wealth.Considering the impact of relegation it shows how futile Randy's cost control is. just found out sissoko has scored for newcastle..the long & short..YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 We are suffering from the mess he and O'Neill made Just can't agree. If we'd appointed the right man after MoN and spent the exact same amount there's no way IMO that we'd be in the bottom 3 right now. I also think if we'd appointed the right man after houllier and spent the exact same amount there's no way we'd be in the bottom 3 right now. And let's no pretend that wasting money stopped when MoN left. Ireland Nzogbia Hutton Given Makoun Bent Compensation to houllier Compensation to houlliers back room staff Settlement with MoN Compensation to Birmingham city Compensation to Alex Mcleish Compensation to Alex Mcleish back room staff Compensation to Norwich city. We're in our position due to the owners awful decision making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) We are suffering from the mess he and O'Neill made Just can't agree. If we'd appointed the right man after MoN and spent the exact same amount there's no way IMO that we'd be in the bottom 3 right now. I also think if we'd appointed the right man after houllier and spent the exact same amount there's no way we'd be in the bottom 3 right now. And let's no pretend that wasting money stopped when MoN left. Ireland Nzogbia Hutton Given Makoun Bent Compensation to houllier Compensation to houlliers back room staff Settlement with MoN Compensation to Birmingham city Compensation to Alex Mcleish Compensation to Alex Mcleish back room staff Compensation to Norwich city. We're in our position due to the owners awful decision making. I don't think anyone's denying that we've wasted money since he left but he is still one of the main reasons why we're in such a mess (Lerner also being heavily to blame for letting O'Neill have such a free reign). I guess a lot of this will depend on whether we reinvest the money made from selling Benteke + any others. We could be looking at £20-£30m overall and we should hopefully have the likes of Given, Dunne, Hutton, Bent and Ireland off the wage bill too. And who will Lambert buy to replace these players ? Players from the lower divisions......Its not working so far ?! It's hard to tell whether Lambert trawling the lower leagues is down to spending constraints or personal preference. Edited February 24, 2013 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts