Bring in some High Earners

[cbr600rr]

agree with the above.. if we were 3rd from top randy gets the praise,under mon we were on track,the buck stops with randy..we are in a mess,we carnt blame mon for being in the bottom three..ffs 3 years ago today i/we were at wembley.

[Woodytom]

We are suffering from the mess he and O'Neill made

Just can't agree.

If we'd appointed the right man after MoN and spent the exact same amount there's no way IMO that we'd be in the bottom 3 right now. I also think if we'd appointed the right man after houllier and spent the exact same amount there's no way we'd be in the bottom 3 right now.

And let's no pretend that wasting money stopped when MoN left.

Ireland

Nzogbia

Hutton

Given

Makoun

Bent

Compensation to houllier

Compensation to houlliers back room staff

Settlement with MoN

Compensation to Birmingham city

Compensation to Alex Mcleish

Compensation to Alex Mcleish back room staff

Compensation to Norwich city.

We're in our position due to the owners awful decision making.

 

 

Whilst I cant really disagree here Big John as you make some valid points, I would argue that the knock on effect of the Lerner/MON period was influential in choosing the wrong man.

 

How many managers will have been put off by the circumstances at the club?

 

Im not saying, no further mistakes have been made - because they have. Though I do feel some don't recognize the catastrophic shambles that Lerner/MON are responsible for. Mainly Lerner, but Martin O'Neill had a responsibility too. If anything, a morale responsibility to do the best for the club. And he didn't do it.

[Big_John_10]

I think that's a bit unfair. Do you think MON was making decisions thinking it would be bad for the club? Our issue was wages in relation to income and there's only one man who should be on top of that.

It's a fair point regarding managers who would come but I think after MON left we would have been an attractive option and let's not forget houllier was allowed to smash our record signing fee for a player.

[Woodytom]

I think that's a bit unfair. Do you think MON was making decisions thinking it would be bad for the club? Our issue was wages in relation to income and there's only one man who should be on top of that.

It's a fair point regarding managers who would come but I think after MON left we would have been an attractive option and let's not forget houllier was allowed to smash our record signing fee for a player.

 

 

Well, I wouldnt underestimate the already sold Ashley young in terms of the D.Bent move. SAF said at the end of Jan that they had completed a move, though there was an agreement in place that he stayed at his club until the summer. I am certain that it was Ash.

 

As for MON. There was no bigger fan than me. Gutted in the way it turned out. Still am. I think MON knew exactly how much money he was wasting and he never once showed anything to make me think he was trying to make the likes of Sidwell/Beye etc anything other than a waste. He knew exactly what was happening and showed that he didnt care for the club when he walked out.

 

I have nightmares over the thought that he wanted to buy Aiden McGeady with the Milner money. Nightmares.

 

Truly am gutted that the man I praised so highly from his time at Leicester (My Dads a Foxes fan btw), and dreamt of him becoming our manager proved so inept at running a football team.

 

After the starting 11, he was totally useless. Why buy any other players knowing you wont use them? Just stick the reserves on the bench.

[briny_ear]

So, "Woodytom", rather than go through the usual stuff to try to challenge this ludicrous view of MON's time at the club, let's try a different line of discussion.

 

If you argue that MON is still having a detrimental effect on the club, when  and in what way do you think it will come to an end?. How will we know the detrimental effect has ended? What will change at the club so we can say, "At last we are rid of the bad effects of Martin O'Neill"?

[Woodytom]

So, "Woodytom", rather than go through the usual stuff to try to challenge this ludicrous view of MON's time at the club, let's try a different line of discussion.

 

If you argue that MON is still having a detrimental effect on the club, when  and in what way do you think it will come to an end?. How will we know the detrimental effect has ended? What will change at the club so we can say, "At last we are rid of the bad effects of Martin O'Neill"?

 

 

I never said MON was still having a detrimental effect on the club. What I said was the Lerner/MON period was so much of a shambles (a lot behind closed doors mind) that we are still recovering from it.

[briny_ear]

OK, how will we know when we've "recovered" from "it" (whatever "it" was)?

[Woodytom]

OK, how will we know when we've "recovered" from "it" (whatever "it" was)?

 

 

When the club is operating in a sustainable manor and the team is performing on the pitch. I suppose thats the definition (a brief one) of a well run football club, that we cant apply to us since the early O'Neill days, when the spending wasnt ridiculous.

[Zatman]

I think that's a bit unfair. Do you think MON was making decisions thinking it would be bad for the club? Our issue was wages in relation to income and there's only one man who should be on top of that.

 

 

so resigning 5 days before season started was good for the club?

[briny_ear]

OK, how will we know when we've "recovered" from "it" (whatever "it" was)?

 

 

When the club is operating in a sustainable manor and the team is performing on the pitch. I suppose thats the definition (a brief one) of a well run football club, that we cant apply to us since the early O'Neill days, when the spending wasnt ridiculous.

Well, the team was performing on the pitch under MON, in case your memory is fading, and how many of us knew Lerner couldn't afford to run the club on the basis he started off on? maybe not even him at the time.

 

So I can't see this motherhood and apple-pie stuff as evidence of recovering from the MON "effect". I think it was probably the aim all along, but Lerner's business plan wasn't even good enough to grace the back of a fag packet. Frankly, I don't think it's much better at present, I don't think he has much of a clue how to run a football club.

 

BTW, do you also think there is a Houllier "effect" (banishing many of the experienced  players he needed to help him to the sidelines, taking a top 6 squad into the relegation zone and spending more than any other manager in our history on a player to get us out of the mess, who can't even get a game nowadays, not to mention Makoun who never even wanted to talk to his colleagues in English let alone play for us)?

 

Or a McLeish "effect" (driving the fans away with terrible football and wasting his reduced budget on N'Zogbia, Hutton and Jenas)?

 

Or maybe even a Lambert "effect"...note our current league position and the terrible football we are playing in defence?

 

Or are you just buying fully into the urban myth that it's just MON who ruined the club? 

[CI]

If we somehow stay up my summer shopping list would look a bit like this :

Dawson

Huth

Nzonzi

Diame

Morrison

Lambert

Long

[Zatman]

id be surprised if we could afford 2 of them

[Woodytom]

 

OK, how will we know when we've "recovered" from "it" (whatever "it" was)?

 

 

When the club is operating in a sustainable manor and the team is performing on the pitch. I suppose thats the definition (a brief one) of a well run football club, that we cant apply to us since the early O'Neill days, when the spending wasnt ridiculous.

Well, the team was performing on the pitch under MON, in case your memory is fading, and how many of us knew Lerner couldn't afford to run the club on the basis he started off on? maybe not even him at the time.

 

So I can't see this motherhood and apple-pie stuff as evidence of recovering from the MON "effect". I think it was probably the aim all along, but Lerner's business plan wasn't even good enough to grace the back of a fag packet. Frankly, I don't think it's much better at present, I don't think he has much of a clue how to run a football club.

 

BTW, do you also think there is a Houllier "effect" (banishing many of the experienced  players he needed to help him to the sidelines, taking a top 6 squad into the relegation zone and spending more than any other manager in our history on a player to get us out of the mess, who can't even get a game nowadays, not to mention Makoun who never even wanted to talk to his colleagues in English let alone play for us)?

 

Or a McLeish "effect" (driving the fans away with terrible football and wasting his reduced budget on N'Zogbia, Hutton and Jenas)?

 

Or maybe even a Lambert "effect"...note our current league position and the terrible football we are playing in defence?

 

Or are you just buying fully into the urban myth that it's just MON who ruined the club? 

 

 

The last sentence shows that you (like many) clearly don't fully read my posts!

 

The first sentence again shows this - yes we were performing on the pitch but we werent being run in a sustainable manor (albeit behind closed doors) - hence why it was a shambles. All of this I have acknowledged in my previous posts.

 

The in between bits I cant really argue with as they are valid points. Points that I have indeed acknowledged over the last couple of years across villatalk.

 

People seem to think I am on the side of Lerner/Lambert simply because they cannot grasp that other people can be and in fact are culpable.

 

Point is my stance of the club is that from top to bottom its a mess. Randy Lerner is at fault the most (though I fully understand his latest actions of cost cutting) I was mightily relieved when we pulled out of Sissoko (if rumours are true). We appear to have learnt from our mistakes of paying over the top wages. Yes Sissoko MIGHT (might) have had a positive effect (though he would have joined a team nowhere near the level of Newcastle who just needed nudging into the right direction) but there is such a bigger picture in football.

 

I think parts of the club are an absolute disgrace. The team from top to bottom has been nowhere near good enough. That includes the managers.

 

It is undeniable that the last 3 years were catalyzed by the MON/Lerner (notice I mention both) era.

 

The spending was woefully out of control to the point where I dont think people realise how bad it was. Too many people have posted 'I dont get why we cant spend any money given that we have just sold some players', for me to believe the majority of this forum understood the position we were in. That spending is why:

 

we cant attract the right managers at this current moment -

 

which means we don't get the right players

which means we are down the bottom.

 

I also think, when MON left - a lot of the players heads left as well - Collins, Dunne, Gabby etc. I don't know what environment he was running but I dont think it emulated the disciplined environment that Houllier, Mcleish and Lambert all (rightly imo) tried to install - There seems to have been a reluctance for players to adapt/respect this (given what MM said etc) and this played a massive part in my current negative opinion to a lot of the players. Many of them players have moved on now, but some still remain/and many were there when existing players came in so its not too unrealistic to imagine that the disrespectful attitude continued somewhat.

 

Ultimately the spending is the cause for me and whether you like it or not, it is clear that MON played a massive part in that. And you know what, I can forgive him for that - bailing when the going got tough though - NOT a chance. 

Edited February 25, 2013 by Woodytom

[briny_ear]

Sigh. It's not the spending that is the cause, it's the fact that Lerner couldn't sustain it and should have known he couldn't, Also the fact that he actually went on putting players on massive salaries (Ireland, Bent, Given) after he had apparently realised he couldn't afford it.

 

You say MON played a massive part in the spending. Well, yes, he was the manager at a time that the owner was trying to spend big to buy his way into the top 4 so of course he spent the owner's money. Are you suggesting that another manager wouldn't have spent the money? If so, care to name him? - then at least we would know who we should have had as manager from 06-10.

[Woodytom]

Sigh. It's not the spending that is the cause, it's the fact that Lerner couldn't sustain it and should have known he couldn't, Also the fact that he actually went on putting players on massive salaries (Ireland, Bent, Given) after he had apparently realised he couldn't afford it.

 

You say MON played a massive part in the spending. Well, yes, he was the manager at a time that the owner was trying to spend big to buy his way into the top 4 so of course he spent the owner's money. Are you suggesting that another manager wouldn't have spent the money? If so, care to name him? - then at least we would know who we should have had as manager from 06-10.

 

I think there are quite a few managers who would have spent the money more wisely.

 

Your first sentence is completely contradictory. 

 

He probably could afford it had we got champions league. We didnt get that because the money was spent poorly?

 

Are you telling me that Martin O'Neill is that much of a thicko that he would buy Habib Beye, put him on 40k a week and play him 9 times in 4 years based purely on the fact that he thought Lerner could afford it???

 

Lerner is responsible for the money being made available. MON is responsible for it being wasted. Together they made a complete and utter arse of it.

[Mantis]

Sigh. It's not the spending that is the cause, it's the fact that Lerner couldn't sustain it and should have known he couldn't, Also the fact that he actually went on putting players on massive salaries (Ireland, Bent, Given) after he had apparently realised he couldn't afford it.

 

You say MON played a massive part in the spending. Well, yes, he was the manager at a time that the owner was trying to spend big to buy his way into the top 4 so of course he spent the owner's money. Are you suggesting that another manager wouldn't have spent the money? If so, care to name him? - then at least we would know who we should have had as manager from 06-10.

 

I think there are quite a few managers who would have spent the money more wisely.

 

Your first sentence is completely contradictory. 

 

He probably could afford it had we got champions league. We didnt get that because the money was spent poorly?

 

Are you telling me that Martin O'Neill is that much of a thicko that he would buy Habib Beye, put him on 40k a week and play him 9 times in 4 years based purely on the fact that he thought Lerner could afford it???

 

Lerner is responsible for the money being made available. MON is responsible for it being wasted. Together they made a complete and utter arse of it.

Exactly.

 

I really don't get the need for people to defend O'Neill at every turn. He was far from perfect and although Lerner is responsible for budgets O'Neill was responsible for wasting them.

[smetrov]

4thplace gets us the qualifying rounds of the champs league.......is this really the gravy train some think ?

 

And aren't newcastle the mugs paying that sissokko £70k a week ...tee hee... if only they knew !

[sharkyvilla]

I think that's a bit unfair. Do you think MON was making decisions thinking it would be bad for the club? Our issue was wages in relation to income and there's only one man who should be on top of that.

 

 

so resigning 5 days before season started was good for the club?

 

Exactly.  I actually thought the Houllier appointment was a good one considering the circumstances, in hindsight it was a disaster and we would have been better having him as director of football.  If we had done then I'm sure that signing players like Sissoko would be a formality for the club now.  Sadly things have gone from one disaster to another and if we stay up having not spent then it is a massive result for the club financially and crucial in turning things around finally after the years of mismanagement.  A massive gamble though.

[briny_ear]

4thplace gets us the qualifying rounds of the champs league.......is this really the gravy train some think ?

Dunno. Why not ask Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs who are currently scrapping for their lives to make sure they're not the ones who miss out in 5th place?

[smetrov]

4thplace gets us the qualifying rounds of the champs league.......is this really the gravy train some think ?

Dunno. Why not ask Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs who are currently scrapping for their lives to make sure they're not the ones who miss out in 5th place?

 

Yep - but they regularly get past the qualifiers was my point. Didn't Everton finish 4th one year ? 

 

Don't get me wrong regulary competing in the champs league will do wonders for your finances. But just nickin 4th - then bombing out in the qualifers won't. People saying 'if only we had gotten 4th place' are I believe misguided - its needs to be on a regular basis....

 

Perhaps not worth arguing about at the mo....