The Randy Lerner thread

[Richard]

Oh right, and of course coming from you this is therefore absolute fact.

I dare say you know no more than most on here and less than some.

I'd guess that he, and others who have seen the company accounts and understand them, know a bit more than those who haven't.

[Risso]

...all the time Lerner was splurging huge amounts of cash on allowing O'Neill to buy whoever he likes, it's now obvious he couldn't afford it.

No, it's now obvious he can't afford to keep doing it. It's also now obvious that there are rules against it. And these UEFA fair play rules also apply to Liverpool. No club can keep throwing money at the thing, rich owner, poor owner, idiot owner or genius owner.

Have you any evidence that Henry can't afford the amounts he is paying out, or that he plans to sell the decent players he's bought and not replace them?

Why do I need evidence he can or can't afford it? As I said they're not permitted to keep doing it. They'll have to stop, as Randy has had to stop.

Finally, when is Emile Heskey going to be offered a 3 year contract on £65K a week?

Liverpool have already been there, mate.

There are lots of exclusions and ways to mitigate the effects of the "Fair Play" rules. For a start, any players bought in 2010 or earlier will not be included in any calculations. Also, any transactions with related parties have to be at fair value. What constitutes a "related party" is the usual company's legislation meaning, and is easily avoided. And do you really think that Lerner is at all concerned with the Fair Play rules? Really?

[John_Lerwill]

... I just ask myself - what wopuld I like to see happen, taking into account the world's financial situation, the way Football is generally and so on.

The answer really is I'd like RL to go back to doing the non-financial things they did at the start - the Comms, the kind of empathy there was with supporters and their concerns. Make us proud. If there's no money, then fair enough. We have no right to expect or demand that anyone puts money into the club, no right to expect or demand an ever richer series of owners to throw away and reject when they've dolloped a billion on the table.

I'd rather keep a good man, who has the best intentions, who needs to step up his performance, than chuck him out and see what turns up.

Totally agreed. Fine sentiments. I'd argue with some of your earlier statements, but your finishing-up is one I like.

But - and this is the serious issue - does the RL/PF team know enough about football to be able to run the club effectively? As ex-bankers they no doubt understand the world monetary situation and doubtless that explains some of the decisions that have been made.

But I share the views of some others; I am not convinced that they do understand football enough and that is why (in my view) they need someone on board to balance-up that aspect. If that's not done then I can see a lot of very disappointed supporters for a long time to come - barring a bit of luck in the appointment of the right team manager.

[Bazdavies79]

What other clubs do is up to them - what's happened at VP is the issue.

I think it's good to look at other clubs and their recent history to get a perspective on where we are.

In the right context that's perfectly correct, but you're taking my comments out of context.

I was speaking of how RL had set a standard and then dropped it in such away that it's left a lot of people bemused - that's an issue that does not concern comparison with other clubs.

I don't think people are bemused by it, I can't for the life of me see why anybody would be. I think people are struggling to accept it as reality. To rub salt in we appointed an unpopular manager.

But to the charges that we're in a mess, or a badly run club because of that, well that's when we need to put a perspective on things.

[Risso]

But to the charges that we're in a mess, or a badly run club because of that, well that's when we need to put a perspective on things.

What is it that makes you think we're a well run club?

[John_Lerwill]

What other clubs do is up to them - what's happened at VP is the issue.

I think it's good to look at other clubs and their recent history to get a perspective on where we are.

In the right context that's perfectly correct, but you're taking my comments out of context.

I was speaking of how RL had set a standard and then dropped it in such away that it's left a lot of people bemused - that's an issue that does not concern comparison with other clubs.

I don't think people are bemused by it, I can't for the life of me see why anybody would be. I think people are struggling to accept it as reality.

In other words people are ... bemused!!! You can couch in whatever terms you like but you clearly accept that people are in difficulty over what has transpired. Perhaps you're spiltting hairs?

But to the charges that we're in a mess, or a badly run club because of that, well that's when we need to put a perspective on things.

I don't think I have suggested that the club is 'badly' run - at least not financially. I mainly support the idea that there's not enough football awareness in the top brass, period.

[blandy]

...do you really think that Lerner is at all concerned with the Fair Play rules? Really?

Yes, Mart, absolutely I do. Whether it's for its own sake, for the sake of needing to comply with rules, or because it's a convenient thing to point to as a reson why costs are being reigned in, we can make our own minds up.

I also think that all the Prem Clubs are concerned, if that's the right word, with complying with them, or looking to see where loopholes or workrounds might lay. All of them. Apropros nothing, It'll be very interesting if Chelsea and Man City get knocked out of the Campions league, and even more so if Chelsea don't finsish in the top 4 - they'll have a major issue in that their revenue would plummet - they are dependent upon it to get anywhere close to complying. There is this kind of adjustment period allowed in the first few years, where overall financial direction is taken into account - if progress is being made towards reducing the annual [finacuial doping]. If the revenues of the 2 clubs with the most doping are hit by European failure, it will have a significant impact IMO.

Lastly I totally believe that Clubs should be self supporting financially. I have never thought differently, ever. I also don't thin Randy's initial aim was anything other than put money in to build it up, and then get it to sustain itself. That plan was a reasonable one. The world though has changed massively since it was drawn up. We need a new plan, and at the moment we are in a holding position. Get re-balanced etc. What happens next, needs careful thought, needs communicating and needs to be different from "get another rich(er) bloke". Tha way madness lies, for those who haven't already caught it.

[Houlston]

There is nothing to suggest the liverpool owners will get it as wrong as we did and that daglish will walk out and be replaced by two useless managers.

Spending £75m on Henderson, Downing and Carroll is evidence enough.

But - and this is the serious issue - does the RL/PF team know enough about football to be able to run the club effectively? As ex-bankers they no doubt understand the world monetary situation and doubtless that explains some of the decisions that have been made.

But I share the views of some others; I am not convinced that they do understand football enough and that is why (in my view) they need someone on board to balance-up that aspect. If that's not done then I can see a lot of very disappointed supporters for a long time to come - barring a bit of luck in the appointment of the right team manager.

Its funny because no one on here has run a football club or played football at a high level yet many seem to know whats best for the club and have all the answers. So why should Randy be any different?

[villabromsgrove]

... I just ask myself - what wopuld I like to see happen, taking into account the world's financial situation, the way Football is generally and so on.

The answer really is I'd like RL to go back to doing the non-financial things they did at the start - the Comms, the kind of empathy there was with supporters and their concerns. Make us proud. If there's no money, then fair enough. We have no right to expect or demand that anyone puts money into the club, no right to expect or demand an ever richer series of owners to throw away and reject when they've dolloped a billion on the table.

I'd rather keep a good man, who has the best intentions, who needs to step up his performance, than chuck him out and see what turns up.

Totally agreed. Fine sentiments. I'd argue with some of your earlier statements, but your finishing-up is one I like.

But - and this is the serious issue - does the RL/PF team know enough about football to be able to run the club effectively? As ex-bankers they no doubt understand the world monetary situation and doubtless that explains some of the decisions that have been made.

But I share the views of some others; I am not convinced that they do understand football enough and that is why (in my view) they need someone on board to balance-up that aspect. If that's not done then I can see a lot of very disappointed supporters for a long time to come - barring a bit of luck in the appointment of the right team manager.

I completely agree with Blandy, and I also agree with John that while Randy and Paul have the financial nous they lack the footballing background to be sure of taking the right football decisions.

The obvious example of this lack of real understanding became obvious during the last managerial appointment process. RL's criteria reflected his business background in that Premier league experience and "sharing his vision" were deemed more important than football related potential, and also clearly demonstrated his shaky grasp on how the game is actually planned and played.

The often mentioned disparity in football philosophy between Martinez and McLeish was glaringly there for every fan to see, and yet they were both approached within a few days of each other.

An experienced footballing CEO would have made sure that if we wanted an exciting attacking Martinez type manager then the alternatives would be Coyle/Lambert/Rogers types.

If McLeish was really the type of manager they originally wanted then the no nonsense defence minded alternatives would have been Allardyce/Pulis etc.

I think that this one example demonstrates better than anything the need for a forensic football brain to come in and sharpen up the rather cosy well intentioned bumbling that seems to pervade footballing matters at Villa at this moment in time.

[Bazdavies79]

What is it that makes you think we're a well run club?

Nothing, as I've never said that. I've consistently said we're not a badly run club. We're not in a mess. There is a difference.

n other words people are ... bemused!!! You can couch in whatever terms you like but you clearly accept that people are in difficulty over what has transpired. Perhaps you're spiltting hairs?

Bemused means that they don't understand. I think people do or should, but wont accept it. You're splitting hairs.

[blandy]

But - and this is the serious issue - does the RL/PF team know enough about football to be able to run the club effectively? As ex-bankers they no doubt understand the world monetary situation and doubtless that explains some of the decisions that have been made.

But I share the views of some others; I am not convinced that they do understand football enough and that is why (in my view) they need someone on board to balance-up that aspect. If that's not done then I can see a lot of very disappointed supporters for a long time to come - barring a bit of luck in the appointment of the right team manager.

Its funny because no one on here has run a football club or played football at a high level yet many seem to know whats best for the club and have all the answers...

Well said. And not only that, but also none of us have any experience of running a football club, but a large number seem to think we have the just the skills and faculties needed to authoritatively pass judgement on the capability and suitability of RL and PF for that role. It's the nature of messageboards and internet, but anyone taking the comments of any of us lot as anything other than mildly diverting waffle from the virtual food holes of skivers and obsessives probably wants to have a word with themself.

[John_Lerwill]

But - and this is the serious issue - does the RL/PF team know enough about football to be able to run the club effectively? As ex-bankers they no doubt understand the world monetary situation and doubtless that explains some of the decisions that have been made.

But I share the views of some others; I am not convinced that they do understand football enough and that is why (in my view) they need someone on board to balance-up that aspect. If that's not done then I can see a lot of very disappointed supporters for a long time to come - barring a bit of luck in the appointment of the right team manager.

Its funny because no one on here has run a football club or played football at a high level yet many seem to know whats best for the club and have all the answers...

Well said. And not only that, but also none of us have any experience of running a football club, but a large number seem to think we have the just the skills and faculties needed to authoritatively pass judgement on the capability and suitability of RL and PF for that role. It's the nature of messageboards and internet, but anyone taking the comments of any of us lot as anything other than mildly diverting waffle from the virtual food holes of skivers and obsessives probably wants to have a word with themself.

Come on, Mr. Bland, this sounds a bit dismissive. Mmmm ... I also notice that you never respond to any of my postings.

Let's get really real! :winkold: I don't think anyone here pretends they are a football expert of the professional type. Neither are football reporters/commentators in the media.

Speaking for myself, I try to speak with the commonsense of someone who ran his own techncial business for over 20 years and dealt with high-level management, CEOs, managing directors etc over a greater length of time. I have developed a nous for knowing whether someone knows his line of business. After working at VP and experiencing what I have has helped me to assess even more closely.

But I am not an expert on football. I admit that.

What I do go by is the effect of the happenings at VP on supporters. It's seen in the drop in attendances ... it's heard when you meet some stranger who you learn happens to be a ST holder at VP and says he has been foolish to pay for he and his children at VP because the quality of the football does not merit it.

The pride has gone out of the Villa. Temporarily I hope.

[Risso]

Its funny because no one on here has run a football club or played football at a high level yet many seem to know whats best for the club and have all the answers...

Well said. And not only that, but also none of us have any experience of running a football club, but a large number seem to think we have the just the skills and faculties needed to authoritatively pass judgement on the capability and suitability of RL and PF for that role. It's the nature of messageboards and internet, but anyone taking the comments of any of us lot as anything other than mildly diverting waffle from the virtual food holes of skivers and obsessives probably wants to have a word with themself.

Faulkner didn't have any experience of running a football club, but was still promoted by his mate from the position of a customer service manager at MBNA to running Aston Villa.

[Super-Villan]

Not having the experience of doing something yourself shouldn't prevent you from criticising others who don't have that experience either.

And while I think I know best, if I was genuinely appointed to Paul Faulker's position, I reckon I would quite rightly get huge amounts of stick from fans for not having any experience of running a football club either.

[Richard]

Not sure that not having experience of running a football club or being a professional football person should preclude any fan from passing a comment , or expressing an opinion. That's what this site is here for surely?

[Risso]

[

Speaking for myself, I try to speak with the commonsense of someone who ran his own techncial business for over 20 years and dealt with high-level management, CEOs, managing directors etc over a greater length of time. I have developed a nous for knowing whether someone knows his line of business. After working at VP and experiencing what I have has helped me to assess even more closely.

But I am not an expert on football. I admit that.

Spot on John. You don't have to be a football administrator to see where problems exist in a business. When a person owns two big sporting clubs, and is making a mess of both of them, it's hard not to find fault. Our average crowd this season is less than 33k, other people can see it as well.

[Houlston]

[

Speaking for myself, I try to speak with the commonsense of someone who ran his own techncial business for over 20 years and dealt with high-level management, CEOs, managing directors etc over a greater length of time. I have developed a nous for knowing whether someone knows his line of business. After working at VP and experiencing what I have has helped me to assess even more closely.

But I am not an expert on football. I admit that.

Spot on John. You don't have to be a football administrator to see where problems exist in a business. When a person owns two big sporting clubs, and is making a mess of both of them, it's hard not to find fault. Our average crowd this season is less than 33k, other people can see it as well.

So we dont need someone with footballing knowledge or we do?

Anyway hasnt Randy identified the problems that lie within Villa hence the change in direction, which is what most are unhappy over.

[Risso]

[

Speaking for myself, I try to speak with the commonsense of someone who ran his own techncial business for over 20 years and dealt with high-level management, CEOs, managing directors etc over a greater length of time. I have developed a nous for knowing whether someone knows his line of business. After working at VP and experiencing what I have has helped me to assess even more closely.

But I am not an expert on football. I admit that.

Spot on John. You don't have to be a football administrator to see where problems exist in a business. When a person owns two big sporting clubs, and is making a mess of both of them, it's hard not to find fault. Our average crowd this season is less than 33k, other people can see it as well.

So we dont need someone with footballing knowledge or we do?

Anyway hasnt Randy identified the problems that lie within Villa hence the change in direction, which is what most are unhappy over.

Has he? He's sold our best players, but still managed to blow £20m plus wages on Makoun, N'Zogbia and Hutton.

[villabromsgrove]

But - and this is the serious issue - does the RL/PF team know enough about football to be able to run the club effectively? As ex-bankers they no doubt understand the world monetary situation and doubtless that explains some of the decisions that have been made.

But I share the views of some others; I am not convinced that they do understand football enough and that is why (in my view) they need someone on board to balance-up that aspect. If that's not done then I can see a lot of very disappointed supporters for a long time to come - barring a bit of luck in the appointment of the right team manager.

Its funny because no one on here has run a football club or played football at a high level yet many seem to know whats best for the club and have all the answers...

Well said. And not only that, but also none of us have any experience of running a football club, but a large number seem to think we have the just the skills and faculties needed to authoritatively pass judgement on the capability and suitability of RL and PF for that role. It's the nature of messageboards and internet, but anyone taking the comments of any of us lot as anything other than mildly diverting waffle from the virtual food holes of skivers and obsessives probably wants to have a word with themself.

Hmm, I don't think that skills and faculties are needed to understand that owners and CEO's from a non footballing background would be better served by leaving football related decisions to experienced experts.

RL and PF are on a learning curve that will take a great deal longer than five years to turn them into experts in their field.

There must be experienced football administrators out there who could turn RL's thoughts into deeds more efficiently than PF at this moment in time imo.

It's not brain surgery Blandy.

[Houlston]

Has he? He's sold our best players, but still managed to blow £20m plus wages on Makoun, N'Zogbia and Hutton.

So now he should know footballers ability better than the manager? FFS.