P3te Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 whats you proposed solution john?anything aside from negativity and blame to bring to the table? how do we become competitive without becoming ineligible for european football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 We should be looking to get ourselves on sound footing so we can properly compete again. You don't go from mediocre to great overnight, you need solid foundations, and sustainable ones to build on. We're several steps ahead of most clubs in that respect. I'm happy for us not to sacrifice that to finish a few irrelevant places higher for a few years. I want us to build a platform that we can genuinely launch something from down the line. Young players and sensible spending is the way to do that. Your proposing spending a fortune for what? So we can't actually play in Europe because FFP regulations rule us out? That's a great plan. Let's throw loads of money at not playing in Europe instead of spending within our means and gradually getting there so we actually CAN play when we finish in the European positions Am i proposing spending a fortune? I've actually said i was happy with the business we did in the summer. Unlike you though i don't have complete faith that we actually have a plan to be competitive again. And unlike you i do blame Lerner for the decline of our club and the fact we have seen such a consistent level of shitness. The thing is though that the only way to be competitive is to spend a fortune. I don't think we have a plan to be as competitive as you'd like us to be, because I know that we can't afford it - the only plan that does that is "Get bought by an extremely rich owner" an owner as different to Randy as he is to Doug - that's how quickly things changed. From where we are to sixth would take £100m a year for the next four years - that's the only way to do it - it's how the league is designed. If you blame Lerner for the decline of our club, then you blame the decline of the club on the lack of spending, if you want that to change, then you are proposing spending a fortune. You can't have both - it's no longer possible to have success without spending a fortune. And P3te, solid foundations don't get you there - neither does a sound financial footing - the teams that have made it have made it by spending the best part of a billion pounds that they didn't have. That's why for me, the interesting bit starts once we've finished the rationalisation and we are a club with a balance sheet that makes sense for a regular company - where do we go from there? those clubs did it when you were allowed to, its no longer an option, so i believe what i said is true. its not a given, but its the only way to have a chance any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 So after 7 years of Lerner We've dropped in the table in terms of commercial revenue Are in a worse financial position as a club Perform worse on a consistent basis Have fought relegation for 3 years running Hardly an improvement. Now we're supposed to just smile and be happy that things might be better in a couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 our commercial income is way up. our finances are worse because we spent money to compete, youve been complaining were not doing that any more which confuses me. do you want more investment or better finances? you cant have both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 d but he was exactly what we needed when he took over. Well considering our current state, no he wasn't. Oh please read properly and comment. At the time, which was a VERY different economic climate in the league, he was exactly what we needed. An owner who would spend money (more money than anybody else was spending at the time as well). As more big players came into the league, the amount of money that one had to spend in order to remain competitive increased year after year. Look at this year. Numerous teams around our level and below have spent crazy money. If somebody told me when RL took over that 12/20 teams in the league would be spending <10m on 1 player and 15/20m total in one window, I would have laughed at them. You keep mentioning Doug but the league was significantly different when he was in charge. Teams could spend no money and still comfortably stay up and remain competitive. I don't know how many times I have to say the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 John your getting boring now please actually propose something..... you say change the owner (to someone who will spend big) that is fair enough I agree with you. If any super rich Arab or Russian is reading this me and John will welcome you with open arms please write a cheque for 500m to a billion pounds for 5 to 8 years funding please then sod off. That is fair. You then went on to say just raise the budget a little more..... to what? and to what end? I don't want any more platitudes from you please give me the other proposal with Randy here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 We should be looking to get ourselves on sound footing so we can properly compete again. You don't go from mediocre to great overnight, you need solid foundations, and sustainable ones to build on. We're several steps ahead of most clubs in that respect. I'm happy for us not to sacrifice that to finish a few irrelevant places higher for a few years. I want us to build a platform that we can genuinely launch something from down the line. Young players and sensible spending is the way to do that. Your proposing spending a fortune for what? So we can't actually play in Europe because FFP regulations rule us out? That's a great plan. Let's throw loads of money at not playing in Europe instead of spending within our means and gradually getting there so we actually CAN play when we finish in the European positions Am i proposing spending a fortune? I've actually said i was happy with the business we did in the summer. Unlike you though i don't have complete faith that we actually have a plan to be competitive again. And unlike you i do blame Lerner for the decline of our club and the fact we have seen such a consistent level of shitness. The thing is though that the only way to be competitive is to spend a fortune. I don't think we have a plan to be as competitive as you'd like us to be, because I know that we can't afford it - the only plan that does that is "Get bought by an extremely rich owner" an owner as different to Randy as he is to Doug - that's how quickly things changed. From where we are to sixth would take £100m a year for the next four years - that's the only way to do it - it's how the league is designed. If you blame Lerner for the decline of our club, then you blame the decline of the club on the lack of spending, if you want that to change, then you are proposing spending a fortune. You can't have both - it's no longer possible to have success without spending a fortune. And P3te, solid foundations don't get you there - neither does a sound financial footing - the teams that have made it have made it by spending the best part of a billion pounds that they didn't have. That's why for me, the interesting bit starts once we've finished the rationalisation and we are a club with a balance sheet that makes sense for a regular company - where do we go from there? I think the plan is to get comfy and sit there until either the worlds richest man wanders by or someone changes the rules - I don't think that's a reflection of Lerner's ambition, I think it's a sensible response to knowing that he doesn't have enough money to do something different. For me once the finances are all sorted the aim is 7th place best of the rest we cant do better than that other than a one off unless we get a super rich owner like you say. I completely agree and wish we would all just get on the same page on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 John your getting boring now please actually propose something..... you say change the owner (to someone who will spend big) that is fair enough I agree with you. If any super rich Arab or Russian is reading this me and John will welcome you with open arms please write a cheque for 500m to a billion pounds for 5 to 8 years funding please then sod off. That is fair. You then went on to say just raise the budget a little more..... to what? and to what end? I don't want any more platitudes from you please give me the other proposal with Randy here.thats not even a solution any more. if we had oil billions take over and pull a city, wed not be allowed to play in europe anyway by the time we qualified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted September 15, 2013 Moderator Share Posted September 15, 2013 John your getting boring now please actually propose something..... you say change the owner (to someone who will spend big) that is fair enough I agree with you. If any super rich Arab or Russian is reading this me and John will welcome you with open arms please write a cheque for 500m to a billion pounds for 5 to 8 years funding please then sod off. That is fair. You then went on to say just raise the budget a little more..... to what? and to what end? I don't want any more platitudes from you please give me the other proposal with Randy here. thats not even a solution any more. if we had oil billions take over and pull a city, wed not be allowed to play in europe anyway by the time we qualified P3te - money will always talk - I would be genuinely surprised to see this rule applied to anyone who can afford to do anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 John your getting boring now please actually propose something..... you say change the owner (to someone who will spend big) that is fair enough I agree with you. If any super rich Arab or Russian is reading this me and John will welcome you with open arms please write a cheque for 500m to a billion pounds for 5 to 8 years funding please then sod off. That is fair. You then went on to say just raise the budget a little more..... to what? and to what end? I don't want any more platitudes from you please give me the other proposal with Randy here.thats not even a solution any more. if we had oil billions take over and pull a city, wed not be allowed to play in europe anyway by the time we qualified P3te - money will always talk - I would be genuinely surprised to see this rule applied to anyone who can afford to do anything about it. you think wed be allowed in ahead of any of arsenal, united, chelsea, city or even liverpool if it came down to it and wed broken the FFP rules? sadly, theres zero chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted September 15, 2013 Moderator Share Posted September 15, 2013 John your getting boring now please actually propose something..... you say change the owner (to someone who will spend big) that is fair enough I agree with you. If any super rich Arab or Russian is reading this me and John will welcome you with open arms please write a cheque for 500m to a billion pounds for 5 to 8 years funding please then sod off. That is fair. You then went on to say just raise the budget a little more..... to what? and to what end? I don't want any more platitudes from you please give me the other proposal with Randy here. thats not even a solution any more. if we had oil billions take over and pull a city, wed not be allowed to play in europe anyway by the time we qualified P3te - money will always talk - I would be genuinely surprised to see this rule applied to anyone who can afford to do anything about it. you think wed be allowed in ahead of any of arsenal, united, chelsea, city or even liverpool if it came down to it and wed broken the FFP rules? sadly, theres zero chance To get in ahead of those people we'd need the kind of money that pretty much puts you above the rule. Monaco, PSG etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 John your getting boring now please actually propose something..... you say change the owner (to someone who will spend big) that is fair enough I agree with you. If any super rich Arab or Russian is reading this me and John will welcome you with open arms please write a cheque for 500m to a billion pounds for 5 to 8 years funding please then sod off. That is fair. You then went on to say just raise the budget a little more..... to what? and to what end? I don't want any more platitudes from you please give me the other proposal with Randy here. thats not even a solution any more. if we had oil billions take over and pull a city, wed not be allowed to play in europe anyway by the time we qualified Hey Pete, Your actually wrong. If a new owner brought say 300m of players on silly wages ala city now and did it the same way city did it at the start of this era then you would be right but if an owner came in did exactly what I just said but did it the way city do it now then it is perfectly fine. The difference is City is now funded through sponsorship it is still through the owners companies but it is still effectively the owner funding it. That however is FFP legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 (edited) our commercial income is way up. our finances are worse because we spent money to compete, youve been complaining were not doing that any more which confuses me. do you want more investment or better finances? you cant have both I want more investment. Just pointing out how we've become under lerner. Oh and while commercial income is up other teams have improved more in this area and we've dropped below them. Edited September 15, 2013 by Big_John_10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 We should be looking to get ourselves on sound footing so we can properly compete again. You don't go from mediocre to great overnight, you need solid foundations, and sustainable ones to build on. We're several steps ahead of most clubs in that respect. I'm happy for us not to sacrifice that to finish a few irrelevant places higher for a few years. I want us to build a platform that we can genuinely launch something from down the line. Young players and sensible spending is the way to do that. Your proposing spending a fortune for what? So we can't actually play in Europe because FFP regulations rule us out? That's a great plan. Let's throw loads of money at not playing in Europe instead of spending within our means and gradually getting there so we actually CAN play when we finish in the European positions Am i proposing spending a fortune? I've actually said i was happy with the business we did in the summer. Unlike you though i don't have complete faith that we actually have a plan to be competitive again. And unlike you i do blame Lerner for the decline of our club and the fact we have seen such a consistent level of shitness. The thing is though that the only way to be competitive is to spend a fortune. I don't think we have a plan to be as competitive as you'd like us to be, because I know that we can't afford it - the only plan that does that is "Get bought by an extremely rich owner" an owner as different to Randy as he is to Doug - that's how quickly things changed. From where we are to sixth would take £100m a year for the next four years - that's the only way to do it - it's how the league is designed. If you blame Lerner for the decline of our club, then you blame the decline of the club on the lack of spending, if you want that to change, then you are proposing spending a fortune. You can't have both - it's no longer possible to have success without spending a fortune. And P3te, solid foundations don't get you there - neither does a sound financial footing - the teams that have made it have made it by spending the best part of a billion pounds that they didn't have. That's why for me, the interesting bit starts once we've finished the rationalisation and we are a club with a balance sheet that makes sense for a regular company - where do we go from there? I think the plan is to get comfy and sit there until either the worlds richest man wanders by or someone changes the rules - I don't think that's a reflection of Lerner's ambition, I think it's a sensible response to knowing that he doesn't have enough money to do something different. For me once the finances are all sorted the aim is 7th place best of the rest we cant do better than that other than a one off unless we get a super rich owner like you say. I completely agree and wish we would all just get on the same page on this one. I agree in that 7th place is realistically what we can aim for. We need to get to that position and then see what we can do. At the moment we have an owner who has made it difficult for a club like us to finish there. And we have an owner who seems content with the club cutting costs and surviving in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Pete you seem to be the only person in world football who cares about FFP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 do you want more investment or better finances? you cant have both Of course you can. It depends on the quality of your investments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 In regards to FFP i'd much rather finish 5th and be banned from the europa league than finish in the lower half hoping one day we'll make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 Got to say John that we should see how we fair this whole season before talking about appropriate investment above what is already being spent as this will be Lamberts first full season not in transition. We saw how much better the team did in the latter stages of last season and we see glimpses of it this season so far too. If we are spending money before next summer it should really only go on an attacking midfielder. Id rather see us keep our powder dry until the summer if not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 It's also an interesting assumption that if we sold the club we'd end up selling to someone willing to spend more money than Lerner. We're hardly an attractive investment - lose £50 million a year in exchange for being told you're not subsidising the club enough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suttonpaul Posted September 15, 2013 Share Posted September 15, 2013 moot point panto that there isn't that many individuals in the world that want to throw away half a billion or more at a play thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts