Chindie Posted May 22, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted May 22, 2012 Christmas trees are actively contrary to the bible's teachings, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 And, yes, I like to celebrate Christmas as a secular tradition - devoid of religious meaning, but loaded with nostalgia and cultural association. The Xtians will just have to get over it. They stole the celebration anyway. They needed to put down the last bits of Aurelian's solar cult and so stole the feast day. Conveniently this allowed them to subvert all the other winter solstice festivals too. Almost everything nostalgic and cultural we do for Christmas has nothing whatsoever to do with the fable of Christ's birth. And the same goes for Easter. Thou shall not steal.....Unless it's other peoples festivals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted May 22, 2012 Author VT Supporter Share Posted May 22, 2012 And, yes, I like to celebrate Christmas as a secular tradition - devoid of religious meaning, but loaded with nostalgia and cultural association. The Xtians will just have to get over it. They stole the celebration anyway. They needed to put down the last bits of Aurelian's solar cult and so stole the feast day. Conveniently this allowed them to subvert all the other winter solstice festivals too. Almost everything nostalgic and cultural we do for Christmas has nothing whatsoever to do with the fable of Christ's birth.Yeah, but I don't just enjoy the Yule logs and mistletoe, etc. I actually like the baby Jesus story. It's a good little tale, just like lots of other fairy stories. So I'll sing the carols and everything - good tunes after all. I just don't step over the line into the "He still LIVES!" madness. I don't do Easter (chocolate eggs aside) though - I'm not a fan of S&M horror porn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton65ca Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Members of the earth's earliest known civilization, the Sumerians, looked on in shock and confusion some 6,000 years ago as God, the Lord Almighty, created Heaven and Earth. According to recently excavated clay tablets inscribed with cuneiform script, thousands of Sumerians—the first humans to establish systems of writing, agriculture, and government—were working on their sophisticated irrigation systems when the Father of All Creation reached down from the ether and blew the divine spirit of life into their thriving civilization. "I do not understand," reads an ancient line of pictographs depicting the sun, the moon, water, and a Sumerian who appears to be scratching his head. "A booming voice is saying, 'Let there be light,' but there is already light. It is saying, 'Let the earth bring forth grass,' but I am already standing on grass." "Everything is here already," the pictograph continues. "We do not need more stars." Historians believe that, immediately following the biblical event, Sumerian witnesses returned to the city of Eridu, a bustling metropolis built 1,500 years before God called for the appearance of dry land, to discuss the new development. According to records, Sumerian farmers, priests, and civic administrators were not only befuddled, but also took issue with the face of God moving across the water, saying that He scared away those who were traveling to Mesopotamia to participate in their vast and intricate trade system. Moreover, the Sumerians were taken aback by the creation of the same animals and herb-yielding seeds that they had been domesticating and cultivating for hundreds of generations. "The Sumerian people must have found God's making of heaven and earth in the middle of their well-established society to be more of an annoyance than anything else," said Paul Helund, ancient history professor at Cornell University. "If what the pictographs indicate are true, His loud voice interrupted their ancient prayer rituals for an entire week." According to the cuneiform tablets, Sumerians found God's most puzzling act to be the creation from dust of the first two human beings. "These two people made in his image do not know how to communicate, lack skills in both mathematics and farming, and have the intellectual capacity of an infant," one Sumerian philosopher wrote. "They must be the creation of a complete idiot." http://tinyurl.com/yaf8c58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted May 22, 2012 Author VT Supporter Share Posted May 22, 2012 You know what Gary? I think you've tipped too far in the other direction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton65ca Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 bwahahahaha just found it this morning. I'm having some fun with this lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Members of the earth's earliest known civilization, the Sumerians, looked on in shock and confusion some 6,000 years ago as God, the Lord Almighty, created Heaven and Earth. According to recently excavated clay tablets inscribed with cuneiform script, thousands of Sumerians—the first humans to establish systems of writing, agriculture, and government—were working on their sophisticated irrigation systems when the Father of All Creation reached down from the ether and blew the divine spirit of life into their thriving civilization. "I do not understand," reads an ancient line of pictographs depicting the sun, the moon, water, and a Sumerian who appears to be scratching his head. "A booming voice is saying, 'Let there be light,' but there is already light. It is saying, 'Let the earth bring forth grass,' but I am already standing on grass." "Everything is here already," the pictograph continues. "We do not need more stars." Historians believe that, immediately following the biblical event, Sumerian witnesses returned to the city of Eridu, a bustling metropolis built 1,500 years before God called for the appearance of dry land, to discuss the new development. According to records, Sumerian farmers, priests, and civic administrators were not only befuddled, but also took issue with the face of God moving across the water, saying that He scared away those who were traveling to Mesopotamia to participate in their vast and intricate trade system. Moreover, the Sumerians were taken aback by the creation of the same animals and herb-yielding seeds that they had been domesticating and cultivating for hundreds of generations. "The Sumerian people must have found God's making of heaven and earth in the middle of their well-established society to be more of an annoyance than anything else," said Paul Helund, ancient history professor at Cornell University. "If what the pictographs indicate are true, His loud voice interrupted their ancient prayer rituals for an entire week." According to the cuneiform tablets, Sumerians found God's most puzzling act to be the creation from dust of the first two human beings. "These two people made in his image do not know how to communicate, lack skills in both mathematics and farming, and have the intellectual capacity of an infant," one Sumerian philosopher wrote. "They must be the creation of a complete idiot." http://tinyurl.com/yaf8c58 That is brilliant, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 22, 2012 Moderator Share Posted May 22, 2012 Insert inaccuracy of Carbon 14 dating here Probably cut and paste from some website such as this Then will follow a discussion where the people who accept the science will be told of the supposed flaws in the methodology, which will of course be riduled by those that believe and understand the science. Hope that cuts down two pages of the topic. The science is correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 "Everything is here already," the pictograph continues. "We do not need more stars." particularly tickled me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted May 22, 2012 Administrator Share Posted May 22, 2012 Almost everything nostalgic and cultural we do for Christmas has nothing whatsoever to do with the fable of Christ's birth. Yeah, but I don't just enjoy the Yule logs and mistletoe, etc. I actually like the baby Jesus story. It's a good little tale, just like lots of other fairy stories. Is this the story which only appears in one gospel and is clearly written by a different author, probably several hundred years after the original? (all of it copied from earlier myths) Or the bits the Francis of Assisi invented? (the "traditional crib scene with animals", which he seems to have pulled out of his arse) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted May 22, 2012 Author VT Supporter Share Posted May 22, 2012 Almost everything nostalgic and cultural we do for Christmas has nothing whatsoever to do with the fable of Christ's birth. Yeah, but I don't just enjoy the Yule logs and mistletoe, etc. I actually like the baby Jesus story. It's a good little tale, just like lots of other fairy stories. Is this the story which only appears in one gospel and is clearly written by a different author, probably several hundred years after the original? (all of it copied from earlier myths) Or the bits the Francis of Assisi invented? (the "traditional crib scene with animals", which he seems to have pulled out of his arse)Well, the latter obviously. But it's good, I associate it with that time of year, and presents and booze and all that (how venal, sorry godbotherers). Why anybody would continue to use it as the basis for their superstitions in this day and age is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 You guys must live in a different sort of place to me. I know sooooo many religious people, believers if you will. I honestly don't know one that would pick up on the use of the word Jesus as proof of underlying faith or uncertainty or anything. I don't know of one that has a strong view on the nice Christmas story or thinks the birth day really was 25th December etc.. I also don't know any that would quote scripture or attempt to prove a point with reference to literature or pseudo science. I just don't recognise the people you appear to be discussing. I wonder if this is me lacking observational skills over 40 plus years, you guys being super sensitive. You guys living near a hot bed of neo Catholicism. Me being friends with Methodist lay preachers that are actually really not very good at it. I don't know a single person that believes the earth is flat, 6,000 years old or that snakes used to be able to speak and juggle fruit. I do know a few dozen people that work a food bank on weekday evenings and attend a church on Sundays - unless it's really nice weather in which case they piss off down to Stackpole and get spiritual with a disposable bbq and a bottle of red. The one thing I will say about 'them' as a group. There is a suspiciously high quota of Volvo ownership. I don't mean to sound soft or liberal or god of the gaps apologetic etc.. I just know a lot of christians that would rather contribute something positive than push the party line. Stealthy converters possibly? Setting good examples rather than scaring people or proving degree level knowledge of Revelations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 22, 2012 Moderator Share Posted May 22, 2012 I'm currently training someone to do my job, who describes herself as a practicing catholic. She refused to tell a driver where the nearest brothel was the other night. That won't go down too well, drivers need to know this stuff when requested otherwise the customers in their cars will get mightily frustrated. She also wipes the headset with baby wipes before she starts her shift, which is fairly funny. I've not mentioned my opinions on religion as I'm concentrating on the job in hand but I'm sure someone as outspoken and without guilt as me will manage to make her cry before xmas (and not deliberately). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Well, I don't know if that was a coincidence, but there goes that 'catholic' thing again. I know you're based in Liverpool and so RC kind of goes with the territory. Now there's a whole subject, cathedrals. What an awesome way to waste money that, well, might just possibly have had other more beneficial uses. Bicks do you have to decide on your own moral line, or is there company policy. If it's company, is it based on a degree of illegality or the way a question is phrased? If I get in the taxi and say I want to meet women, I'd expect a taxi driver to have the knowledge. If I got in and said I wanted a knocking shop, I'd still expect a taxi driver to know where to take me. But if I got in and said I really badly needed the drug of my choice, is that something that would be catered for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 From my experience, religious people are bearable but usually have one sticking point from which they can never recover. This is usually abortion/homosexuality. But NI is a depressingly conservative little dump so it's no surprise. Some have more than one sticking point, but these people aren't 'covert christians', they don't blend in with the crowd. They tend to have wild country accents and an 80s fashion sense. Perhaps in a more civilised part of the world, religious people can be alright. I don't think I could ever really get along with them, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton65ca Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 chrisp, come on over to N America sometime, it's crawling with bible believing, pre tribulation rapture, full gospel, KJV, tongues talking, holy roller, on fire charismatic types that will clear your sinuses with enough Pauline calvinism to make you wonder which side of the "freewill or predestination" debate you will stand on. I am from liberal British Columbia, and there are plenty around here, and if you go up the Fraser Valley, it's BCs bible belt. Southern BC and Alberta, tons of churches, fundies aplenty, Conservative country mindset, anti gun control, and in some cases, bigamist plural marriage mormon fringe cults and white power anti gov't Christian Identity dominionists as well. We get 'em all out here in the sticks... We had protests not twenty years back about Chinese New year celebrations here in Victoria, the dragon dancers were causing a helluva stink cos of course they're satanists in disguise, and even if they weren't, its an insult to the Xtian heritage of our fair country and all......... I generalize a bit, but Europe and N America are very far apart with regard to all that. Your fundies are few and far between, in East Texas, for example, (Not that I'm from there but...) if you were to DARE to declare yourself an atheist you'd be, for all intents and purposes, shunned for the rest of your days. Khryst, they'd rather you were a muslim, at least that they might be able to wrap their heads around, but an atheist? You might just as well be from Mars. cheers, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton65ca Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 ... and although they're in the minority, I have met a number of people (and at one point I pretty much was one) who believed the following: Young earth. possibly as young as 6000 yrs. (6 consecutive ages with seventh to come (Millennial reign of Christ) Literal flood (Noah, animals, Ark on Ararat) w/ patriarchal ages as long as 900+ yrs (Methuselah, Enoch etc) Parting of the Red Sea, Exodus as written. All prophetic OT books speaking in advance of Christ and his resurrection Virgin birth Resurrection Miracles Book of Revelation speaking particularly of future events, rise of Babylon financial system, mark of beast (ID chip), antichrist, lake of fire etc etc There are MILLIONS of folks around here that believe ALL of the above and more. But then CS Lewis, not a dumbass, believed all of the above as well, he was pretty much my philosophical mentor for decades I think European religion has been gutted by liberalism and "higher criticism" to be honest, over in N America one tends to find the more evangelical stripe in the majority. just my 2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton65ca Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 http://tinyurl.com/bs8btla I think you should have a quick look at this and read this gentleman's response to his accusers. I've met lots of people in my life who aren't too shy of this kind of rhetoric. They aren't state legislators either...frightening. I know this is the outer edge, but this guy is in a position of power, and there are others like him. The problem from my perspective, is that the extreme is becoming the norm, things are becoming polarized to a dangerous level. It's one thing to say "my esteemed colleague and I have a difference of opinion and we shall have to leave it at that", it is quite another to say "The guy across the aisle is of the devil and filled with a vexatious, profane and rebellious spirit not in keeping with the teachings of the scriptures"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton65ca Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I should also qualify some o my content here by saying that I do know a lot of people with the above belief system, to the nth degree absolutely doctrinally certain of all of the above, who are also the sweetest, most generous, loving caring human beings imaginable. As ChrisP noted, I a lot of folks who hold the most ludicrous (from our point of view as non religious) doctrines, spend their days in the way of helping others, the needy, less fortunate and so on, and whether they would have been the same decent, loving caring folk without their spiritual viewpoint is a matter for another debate, but I cannot deny their kindness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 23, 2012 Moderator Share Posted May 23, 2012 Bicks do you have to decide on your own moral line, or is there company policy. If it's company, is it based on a degree of illegality or the way a question is phrased? If I get in the taxi and say I want to meet women, I'd expect a taxi driver to have the knowledge. If I got in and said I wanted a knocking shop, I'd still expect a taxi driver to know where to take me. But if I got in and said I really badly needed the drug of my choice, is that something that would be catered for? Drugs definitely no, prostitutes yes, I agree its strange morality, as for there being a company policy no there isn't one. There's also ways and means of saying no, the simple sorry I don't know is much better than the I wouldn't tell you even if I knew which is where she's coming from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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