Risso Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 WHAT is it that possesses otherwise perfectly intelligent people (the fine and estimable Julie being a prime example), when involved with religion to completely take leave of their senses in such a way? It truly intrigues and bewilders me. Because I've always questioned things and when you look into matters they are not always as they seem. You are absolutely spot on about the Churches in the Middle Ages savaging people who questioned their teachings and where they came from, which actually had nothing to do mostly with the Bible and Christian teachings. Each and every day the more archaeologists dig up, the more they find that doesn't fit the standard model. There is more and more evidence coming to the fore of a global, highly advanced civilisation that suddenly came to an abrupt end. If anyone wishes to dismiss it all as rubbish, then fine that is their perrogative. I really don't give a monkey's backside and what's more I'm not going to argue about it. Thank you for the compliment BTW Mike The thing with science is that it is ALWAYS questioning itself. Whether it's physics, or archaeology or any science. It just wants to find the truth, whatever it is. If science did prove that the earth was a few thousand years old, no true scientist would have a problem with that. The fact is though that the more evidence we obtain, the more and more certain we can be that evolution is how we came to be where we are today, and that creationism and earth being a few thousand years old are just absolute nonsense with no real science behind it whatsoever. Religious fundamentalists and creationist "scientists" start with what they beieve is the truth, and try desperately to bend the truth to make the facts fit their religious beliefs. Which is obviously a crazy way to go about things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steaknchips Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 In fact, it would be impossible to do so since science can only study physical phenomena. Immaterial substances are outside of the scope of science. Animals can be explained purely in material terms, whereas humans cannot since they possess minds, not merely brains that receive. This just shows how little research you have done. Every thought you have is the result of a physical action , i.e. chemical reactions in your physical brain . Your mind and your body are not two different entities . One is in charge of the other and it certainly isn't the mind. Neuroscience.....I suggest you "research" it . It also puts to bed the silly notion that humans are in control of ourselves and that we have free will. Everything you do and think about is dictated by your physical brain . There is no metaphysical "you" who controls your brain . f all things are reducible to matter and all things must work under the boundaries of natural laws, then we are nothing more than the product of neural-chemical reactions that occur in the physical brain. This would negate the idea of real freedom and necessitate that our beliefs, thoughts, "free will," etc., are nothing more than the product of physical laws. Materialists counter by saying that the human free will and consciousness are emerging properties of supercomplex structures such as the brain. But, this is only a theory that must necessarily be assumed if one holds to materialism. Furthermore, materialism itself is a concept. But how do concepts have any actual existence in a material world? The concept itself is not made up of physical parts or components. Therefore, since materialism says all things that exist do so in the physical realm, the fact that concepts exist refutes that idea. If the human mind is produced from arrangements of complexity of matter, then is it not logical to conclude that greater complexities of matter could also produce something you would call God that would exceed physical limitations? It would certainly seem so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Chindie, I wouldnt just write it off like many do before doing research on both sides of the fence 1st. What are you talking about? The only "side" to research is the history of the universe, earth and its inhabitants (in other words life in all forms). Absolutely NO evidence suggests that every human being is a direct ancestor of a boat builder and his children living in the middle east a few thousand years ago. Absolutely no data indicates that all life on earth save the lucky passangers of a giant boat was ever wiped out by a massive flood. No data indicates that such a giant boat was ever built. Guessing that it could theoretically be the case does not count as evidence. The bible (and I have actually read most of it!) does not count as evidence. There is no evidence to support the stories of miracles in the bible! There is no evidence to support the existance of a god! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 The thing with science is that it is ALWAYS questioning itself. Whether it's physics, or archaeology or any science. It just wants to find the truth, whatever it is. If science did prove that the earth was a few thousand years old, no true scientist would have a problem with that. The fact is though that the more evidence we obtain, the more and more certain we can be that evolution is how we came to be where we are today, and that creationism and earth being a few thousand years old are just absolute nonsense with no real science behind it whatsoever. Religious fundamentalists and creationist "scientists" start with what they beieve is the truth, and try desperately to bend the truth to make the facts fit their religious beliefs. Which is obviously a crazy way to go about things. You see this is what does my head in...I don't know how many times I've posted that I do not beleive that the Earth is only a few thousand years old but time and time again I get lumped in with the Creationist Young Earthers. The very first Scripture of the Bible states "In the beginning God created the heavens(the Universe) and the Earth".... which is a tiny miniscule pinprick in the vastness of that Universe. That could have taken billions of years. Therefore next time I'm going to be lumped in with "all of the God botherers", please make sure you rubbish the opinions I hold. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazdavies79 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 If you believe the Ark story, you're a little bit nuts IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steaknchips Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 Chindie, I wouldnt just write it off like many do before doing research on both sides of the fence 1st. What are you talking about? The only "side" to research is the history of the universe, earth and its inhabitants (in other words life in all forms). Absolutely NO evidence suggests that every human being is a direct ancestor of a boat builder and his children living in the middle east a few thousand years ago. Absolutely no data indicates that all life on earth save the lucky passangers of a giant boat was ever wiped out by a massive flood. No data indicates that such a giant boat was ever built. Guessing that it could theoretically be the case does not count as evidence. The bible (and I have actually read most of it!) does not count as evidence. There is no evidence to support the stories of miracles in the bible! There is no evidence to support the existance of a god! There is, its just you somehow fail to yourself to believe it. Ive posted a piece I found earlier in this topic found here http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence that shows evidence. Yet you have yet to show me evidence of the stories in the Bible being false..Evidence of a miricle is in the very writtings in the Bible..Do you believe the bible, just not miracles? Or do you plainly disregard all the substance in the bible altogether? If so why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 In fact, it would be impossible to do so since science can only study physical phenomena. Immaterial substances are outside of the scope of science. Animals can be explained purely in material terms, whereas humans cannot since they possess minds, not merely brains that receive. This just shows how little research you have done. Every thought you have is the result of a physical action , i.e. chemical reactions in your physical brain . Your mind and your body are not two different entities . One is in charge of the other and it certainly isn't the mind. Neuroscience.....I suggest you "research" it . It also puts to bed the silly notion that humans are in control of ourselves and that we have free will. Everything you do and think about is dictated by your physical brain . There is no metaphysical "you" who controls your brain . f all things are reducible to matter and all things must work under the boundaries of natural laws, then we are nothing more than the product of neural-chemical reactions that occur in the physical brain. This would negate the idea of real freedom and necessitate that our beliefs, thoughts, "free will," etc., are nothing more than the product of physical laws. Materialists counter by saying that the human free will and consciousness are emerging properties of supercomplex structures such as the brain. But, this is only a theory that must necessarily be assumed if one holds to materialism. Furthermore, materialism itself is a concept. But how do concepts have any actual existence in a material world? The concept itself is not made up of physical parts or components. Therefore, since materialism says all things that exist do so in the physical realm, the fact that concepts exist refutes that idea. If the human mind is produced from arrangements of complexity of matter, then is it not logical to conclude that greater complexities of matter could also produce something you would call God that would exceed physical limitations? It would certainly seem so. Yet more copy and paste from CARM.ORG. I'm pretty sure you don't even understand what you have just posted . You can't just google and copy your way out of every awkward dilemma . the last paragraph is an absolute strawman by the way . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Brumerican, all your questions can be answered. ques.....How did the human species evolve into the various races we see today in 6-10,000 years ? answ......The different races came from the descendants of Noah. It does not take long for genetic traits to become dominant based upon geographical location. Take, for example, people who would live in Africa where the sun is very direct and there's not as much cloud cover. People with darker skin would survive better because they would not be sunburned and develop skin cancer the way lighter skinned people would. On the other hand, people in the northern regions, where the sunlight is less direct, would need more vitamin D which is produced by the sunlight hitting the skin. Vitamin D prevents rickets, which is the softening of bones which can lead to fractures and breaks. But people with darker skin in more northern, colder climates would not be able to produce as much vitamin D, and so they would not do as well as people with lighter skin. The descendents of Noah had all the genetic material necessary to produce the various so-called races as they moved out across the land and went to different locations. Given enough time, those genetic traits that manifested and aided in survivability became dominant, and those genetic traits that manifested but did not help survivability were eventually wiped out. Please note that CARM does not affirm the theory of evolution which states that people evolved from lower life forms. But God, in his great wisdom, provided enough genetic information in our genes to aid us in adapting to various needs Those are not answers! Those are essentially new questions in the shape of hypotheses! The hypothesis here is that all human beings are the descendants of Noah and his offspring. There is absolutely no evidence to support the hypothesis. What you have provided is obviously not an answer. The alternative hypothesis is of course that all human beings are NOT descendants of Noah and his offspring. There is endless eveidence to support this hypothesis. Therefore the only logical conclusion is to reject the first hypothesis and stick to the one that actually is supported by evidence. That is the answer to the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 There is, its just you somehow fail to yourself to believe it. Ive posted a piece I found earlier in this topic found here http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence that shows evidence. Yet you have yet to show me evidence of the stories in the Bible being false..Evidence of a miricle is in the very writtings in the Bible..Do you believe the bible, just not miracles? Or do you plainly disregard all the substance in the bible altogether? If so why? Do you believe in Hinduism ? Islam ? The Greek Gods ? These religions have written accounts of miracles . Do you disregard them and if so , why ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I can't believe that website actually has a section called 'cut and paste information'. Says it all really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 If anyone is the slightest bit interested then a guy called Klaus Dona produced a 45 minute slideshow of some of the anomalies that have been found around the Earth, which asks some interesting questions of our common ancestry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Chindie, I wouldnt just write it off like many do before doing research on both sides of the fence 1st. What are you talking about? The only "side" to research is the history of the universe, earth and its inhabitants (in other words life in all forms). Absolutely NO evidence suggests that every human being is a direct ancestor of a boat builder and his children living in the middle east a few thousand years ago. Absolutely no data indicates that all life on earth save the lucky passangers of a giant boat was ever wiped out by a massive flood. No data indicates that such a giant boat was ever built. Guessing that it could theoretically be the case does not count as evidence. The bible (and I have actually read most of it!) does not count as evidence. There is no evidence to support the stories of miracles in the bible! There is no evidence to support the existance of a god! There is, its just you somehow fail to yourself to believe it. Ive posted a piece I found earlier in this topic found here http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence that shows evidence. Yet you have yet to show me evidence of the stories in the Bible being false..Evidence of a miricle is in the very writtings in the Bible..Do you believe the bible, just not miracles? Or do you plainly disregard all the substance in the bible altogether? If so why? The bible contains some references to historical events that are more or less true (however, many of the references to historical events in the bible are actually of questionable validity). I'm not going to copy/paste evidence of the miracles of the bible being false. That is a massive waste of time for me when you are perfectly able to do the research yourself. What do you mean when you say "evidence of a miracle is in the very writings of the bible"? Do you mean that writing the bible is a miracle in its own right? It is obviously not. It's not even that long. Do you mean that the bible is valid evidence of the miracles it portrays in its own right? It is obviously not. It is not even written by first hand witnesses of these so-called miracles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Chindie, I wouldnt just write it off like many do before doing research on both sides of the fence 1st. What are you talking about? The only "side" to research is the history of the universe, earth and its inhabitants (in other words life in all forms). Absolutely NO evidence suggests that every human being is a direct ancestor of a boat builder and his children living in the middle east a few thousand years ago. Absolutely no data indicates that all life on earth save the lucky passangers of a giant boat was ever wiped out by a massive flood. No data indicates that such a giant boat was ever built. Guessing that it could theoretically be the case does not count as evidence. The bible (and I have actually read most of it!) does not count as evidence. There is no evidence to support the stories of miracles in the bible! There is no evidence to support the existance of a god! There is, its just you somehow fail to yourself to believe it. Ive posted a piece I found earlier in this topic found here http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence that shows evidence. Yet you have yet to show me evidence of the stories in the Bible being false..Evidence of a miricle is in the very writtings in the Bible..Do you believe the bible, just not miracles? Or do you plainly disregard all the substance in the bible altogether? If so why? The bible contains some references to historical events that are more or less true (however, many of the references to historical events in the bible are actually of questionable validity). I'm not going to copy/paste evidence of the miracles of the bible being false. That is a massive waste of time for me when you are perfectly able to do the research yourself. What do you mean when you say "evidence of a miracle is in the very writings of the bible"? Do you mean that writing the bible is a miracle in its own right? It is obviously not. It's not even that long. Do you mean that the bible is valid evidence of the miracles it portrays in its own right? It is obviously not. It is not even written by first hand witnesses of these so-called miracles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I hate to be 'that guy', but really, religion is just filling a need. A chemical imbalance if you will. Belief in something bigger than oneself releases chemicals that stop people from the otherwise inevitable malaise that comes with being alive and aware of ones own demise into nothingness. I suspect most people have this, and whilst some make do with religious belief, others find comfort elsewhere or enjoy the malaise. Like the chimps say, ooh ah aooh aoh ao hoao. or in english, 'this banana is nice, lets leave it at that.' (disclaimer: pseudo-intellectualism may or may not be influenced by the previous nights heavy drinking) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I suspect most people have this, and whilst some make do with religious belief, others find comfort elsewhere or enjoy the malaise. I find comfort and malaise in being a Villa fan...It's the best of both worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steaknchips Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 I hate to be 'that guy', but really, religion is just filling a need. A chemical imbalance if you will. Belief in something bigger than oneself releases chemicals that stop people from the otherwise inevitable malaise that comes with being alive and aware of ones own demise into nothingness. I suspect most people have this, and whilst some make do with religious belief, others find comfort elsewhere or enjoy the malaise. Like the chimps say, ooh ah aooh aoh ao hoao. or in english, 'this banana is nice, lets leave it at that.' (disclaimer: pseudo-intellectualism may or may not be influenced by the previous nights heavy drinking) I think its the other way around. I think non believers just chose the easier option as "I didnt see it" "I could never imagine it" "so I dont believe it"...Which I suppose is fine if they can offer another alternative to how we came to be about....But they cant. Even looking at when the bible was written, certain events, timelines, people and places have been investigated and found to have substance..The Ark dimensions have even been looked at by engineers and they have said its a posibily...Yet when it was written, how did they know those measurements would stand the test of time?(along with the other occurances, timelines, places, people and events?) Pretty clever stuff for a bunch of people travelling around on a few donkey's.. :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 There is, its just you somehow fail to yourself to believe it. Ive posted a piece I found earlier in this topic found here http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence that shows evidence. Yet you have yet to show me evidence of the stories in the Bible being false..Evidence of a miricle is in the very writtings in the Bible..Do you believe the bible, just not miracles? Or do you plainly disregard all the substance in the bible altogether? If so why? Do you believe in Hinduism ? Islam ? The Greek Gods ? These religions have written accounts of miracles . Do you disregard them and if so , why ? Copy and paste your way out of this Steak and Chips. Seriously...ask yourself why you aren't Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or worshipping Zeus ? "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ...Stephen F Roberts A very powerful quote IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steaknchips Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 I dont know what you mean Brum in your question.. Hinduism, Islam, etc Do I believe in certain teachings and way of life used in Hinduism? Yes Do I believe Mohammed existed? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I dont know what you mean Brum in your question.. Hinduism, Islam, etc Do I believe in certain teachings and way of life used in Hinduism? Yes Do I believe Mohammed existed? Yes. Do you believe all the miracles that have been written about throughout the ages are true and if not why ? For example do you believe the lightning was caused by Zeus etc ? Do you believe in the winged horse quoted in the Qu'ran ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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