Could Noah's Ark hold all the animals?

[steaknchips]

so hang on if he died to forgive our sins then why does it matter if people sin? it's been offset against the death of Jesus.

What do mean "why does it matter"?

It does matter because we have free will and must use it to "try" our best to fight the sin..Believing in Jesus, asking forgiveness, doing our best to understand and to live the way our lord wants is all thats asked....

No it dosnt matter if you sin...Thats expected.

But what matters is the turning away from God.

[JulieB]

See the quotes from Ruttherford about the Jews, and also his remarks about Catholics in his various writings. He was anti-semitic and anti-Catholic.

I never said he wasn't an outspoken person and I posted the apology he had to make in front of everyone at the WT in New York because of the upset he'd caused. He was clearly a hot head whose tongue got him into trouble more than once. However he was just as fierce in his condemnation of Hitler and the Nazis.

You used the Fifth Column that he wrote as validation for anti semetism... yet on Page 9 he specifically states that nothing that the WT had produced was anti- Jew.. as the Awake in 1930 makes clear.

[GarethRDR]

It does matter because we have free will

But you just said that the bible details everything that will happen, so again I ask (because I've been ignored three times on this question now); if our path is pre-determined, how do we have free-will?

[JulieB]

Declaration of Facts which I assume you are quoting from also contained the words

The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position:...Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles.

I have already posted this... but to repeat.. from the Awake 1978...

Declaration of Fact

With the government in transition and the country in turmoil, the Witnesses wanted to make a clear statement of their position. By means of the “Declaration,” the Witnesses strongly denied accusations of financial involvement or political ties with Jews. Thus, the document stated:

“It is falsely charged by our enemies that we have received financial support for our work from the Jews. Nothing is farther from the truth. Up to this hour there never has been the slightest bit of money contributed to our work by Jews.”

Having mentioned money, the “Declaration” went on to denounce unfair practices of big business. It said: “It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations.”

This statement clearly did not refer to the Jewish people in general, and it is regrettable if it has been misunderstood and has given cause for any offense.

Some have claimed that Jehovah’s Witnesses shared the hostility toward the Jews that was commonly taught in the German churches at the time. This is absolutely untrue. By their literature and conduct during the Nazi era, the Witnesses rejected anti-Semitic views and condemned the Nazi mistreatment of the Jews. Certainly, their kindness toward Jews who shared their lot in the concentration camps provides a resounding rebuttal to this false accusation.

The “Declaration” defined the Witnesses’ work as religious in character, stating: “Our organization is not political in any sense. We only insist on teaching the Word of Jehovah God to the people.”

The “Declaration” also reminded the government of its own promises. The Witnesses upheld certain high ideals, and these happened to be publicly espoused also by the German government. Among these were family values and religious freedom.

In this regard, the “Declaration” added: “A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present national government are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our publications, and show that Jehovah God will see to it that these high ideals in due time will be attained by all persons who love righteousness

Thus, the Witnesses never expressed support for the Nazi Party. Moreover, in the exercise of religious freedom, they did not intend to stop their public preaching.

As I also stated however diplomatic that statement or the letter written from the German branch office....it made no difference to Hitler or the Nazis because they immediately turned on the Bible Students and threw them into Nazi concentration camps...

The rest as they say is history....

[Wainy316]

It does matter because we have free will

But you just said that the bible details everything that will happen, so again I ask (because I've been ignored three times on this question now); if our path is pre-determined, how do we have free-will?

You haven't been ignored, you have rendered him answerless like many other posts on here that remain selectively unanswered.

[Risso]

See the quotes from Ruttherford about the Jews, and also his remarks about Catholics in his various writings. He was anti-semitic and anti-Catholic.

I never said he wasn't an outspoken person and I posted the apology he had to make in front of everyone at the WT in New York because of the upset he'd caused. He was clearly a hot head whose tongue got him into trouble more than once. However he was just as fierce in his condemnation of Hitler and the Nazis.

You used the Fifth Column that he wrote as validation for anti semetism... yet on Page 9 he specifically states that nothing that the WT had produced was anti- Jew.. as the Awake in 1930 makes clear.

There are loads of statements from him that are anti-senitic, loads. As with most cults, they don't like competing with other cults, and hence his attacks on Jews and Catholics. If you want to follow a hateful organisation, then that's up to you, but I'll always try and show up what you say for the lies they are.

[mjmooney]

Posts merged.

[JulieB]

There are loads of statements from him that are anti-semitic, loads. As with most cults, they don't like competing with other cults, and hence his attacks on Jews and Catholics. If you want to follow a hateful organisation, then that's up to you, but I'll always try and show up what you say for the lies they are.

You haven't provided one anti semitic quote with a source. It would be interesting to see them

The European Court of Human Rights has established that Jehovah's Witnesses are a recognised religion in 14 lands so far if there's been any argument.... so technically it is hard to call us a cult. Our beleifs are not secret and we do not seperate ourselves from other people.

The Watchtower is now officially the worlds most widely read monthly publication... so again that is some going for a cult, which is by inference keeps things hidden.

However you can choose to refer to us as a cult if you wish...it means nothing..

[mjmooney]

Course it's all Bunkem.. I hear people say..... however it's hard not to find a culture that doesn't contain tales of Gods mating with humans

Splutter. You couldn't make it up.

Oh wait, they did.

It's hard not to find a culture that doesn't contain all manner of bizarre nonsense left over from its primitive era. Does that make it true?

Why do you pick and choose which "tales" to believe? Or should I say: why do you listen to your cult leaders when they feed you this twaddle?

[Risso]

Cult, sect, religious nutjobs....semantics doesn't change what you are - a hateful bunch of lunatics who would rather a child die than receive a blood transfusion. An evil organisation, pure and simple.

[TrentVilla]

However he was just as fierce in his condemnation of Hitler and the Nazis.

I've not really seen anything to support this yet Julie, the letter in 1933 certainly isn't evidence of this as I've already illustrated.

[JulieB]

It's hard not to find a culture that doesn't contain all manner of bizarre nonsense left over from its primitive era. Does that make it true?

That's tosh... many cultures contain writings and myths that are fictional ...many that have a factual basis. You only have to look back

and clearly some ancient writings were works of fiction and don't claim to be anything else. Other writings it's different.

J K Rowling would never claim Harry Potter is real and in hundreds/thousands of years time mankind will not be passing it off as real

characters.

The Bible is completely different... it categorically claims to be inspired by God and correct as a book of history, poetry and prophecy...

Harry Potter does no such thing.

[TrentVilla]

It hasnt been easy for God..But all through it he has stood by his creation. The flood may have seemed drastic but again ,it was to save the creation..

Hasn't it? Surely everything is easy to him?

As for the great flood not only is it drastic it is extremely complexed and cruel and not to mention sadistic. He could have just given the world a shake like a giant etch a sketch and started with a blank canvass but no, he makes Noah build a giant boat and then drowns the world including many of his creations.

He drowned all the innocent animals not on Noah's strictly guest and partners VIP list, not to mention all the people including those who helped build Noah's party boat.

It seems it was very easy for God, so much so he could **** around and drown the world for his own entertainment and that he is a sadist.

Unless...it is all just a story....

Thing is as the all powerr

The fight in the universe is over the creation..One wants to save it/keep it(God)...The other is out to destroy it/take control of it(Satan)..

Seems to me that God only wants to save it if everyone plays by his rules, which kind of means that actually his the one who wants to control it or else he will destroy it.

Seems to me that religion is just full of contradictions, its almost like it was written by man rather than an all powerful being.

[JulieB]

However he was just as fierce in his condemnation of Hitler and the Nazis.

I've not really seen anything to support this yet Julie, the letter in 1933 certainly isn't evidence of this as I've already illustrated.

Well just before I answer that... I've done a bit more research on exactly what took place in 1933. It appears the original text was watered down at the behest of one man who served as branch manager in Germany..one Paul Balzereit. Who actually lied about the adoption of the Declaration to Brother Ruitheford

BERLIN CONVENTION ON JUNE 25, 1933

By the summer of 1933 the work of Jehovah’s witnesses had been banned in the majority of German states. The brothers’ homes were being searched regularly and many brothers had been arrested. The flow of spiritual food was partially hampered, although only for a time; still many brothers were asking how long it would be possible to continue the work. In this situation the congregations were invited on very short notice to a convention to be held in Berlin on June 25. Since it was expected that many would be unable to attend because of the various bans, the congregations were encouraged to send at least one or several delegates. But, as it turned out, 7,000 brothers got there. For many of them it took three days, some riding bicycles the entire distance, whereas others went by truck, since the bus companies refused to rent buses to a banned organization.

Brother Rutherford, who, together with Brother Knorr, had come to Germany just a few days before in order to see what could be done to ensure the safety of the Society’s property, had prepared a declaration with Brother Balzereit to be presented to the convention delegates for adoption. It was a protest against the meddling of the Hitler government into the preaching work we were doing. All high government officials, from the Reich’s president on down, were to receive a copy of the declaration, if possible, by registered mail. Several days before the convention started Brother Rutherford returned to America.

Many in attendance were disappointed in the “declaration,” since in many points it failed to be as strong as the brothers had hoped. Brother Mütze from Dresden, who had worked closely with Brother Balzereit up until that time, accused him later of having weakened the original text. It was not the first time that Brother Balzereit had watered down the clear and unmistakable language of the Society’s publications so as to avoid difficulties with governmental agencies.

A large number of brothers refused to adopt it just for this reason. In fact, a former pilgrim brother by the name of Kipper refused to offer it for adoption and another brother substituted. It could not be rightfully said that the declaration was unanimously adopted, even though Brother Balzereit later notified Brother Rutherford that it had been.

The conventioners returned home tired and many were disappointed. They took 2,100,000 copies of the “declaration” home with them, however, and made fast work of distributing them and sending them to numerous persons in positions of responsibility.

The copy sent to Hitler was accompanied by a letter that, in part, read:

“The Brooklyn presidency of the Watch Tower Society is and always has been exceedingly friendly to Germany. In 1918 the president of the Society and seven members of the Board of Directors in America were sentenced to 80 years’ imprisonment for the reason that the president refused to let two magazines in America, which he edited, be used in war propaganda against Germany.”

Even though the declaration had been weakened and many of the brothers could not wholeheartedly agree to its adoption, yet the government was enraged and started a wave of persecution against those who had distributed it.

[CrackpotForeigner]

Hey you guys, I've been dropping in on this thread from time to time, just letting everyone in on some of the things that true believers can look forward to in that place we all wanna go: heaven.

The latest thing I can reveal about heaven is that in heaven every time you play the slot machines you hit the jackpot and get flown home in a private jet with bikini-clad (speedo-clad for the ladies) service.

[mjmooney]

It's hard not to find a culture that doesn't contain all manner of bizarre nonsense left over from its primitive era. Does that make it true?

That's tosh... many cultures contain writings and myths that are fictional ...many that have a factual basis. You only have to look back

and clearly some ancient writings were works of fiction and don't claim to be anything else. Other writings it's different.

J K Rowling would never claim Harry Potter is real and in hundreds/thousands of years time mankind will not be passing it off as real

characters.

The Bible is completely different... it categorically claims to be inspired by God and correct as a book of history, poetry and prophecy...

Claims. CLAIMS. You got in one.

OK, my Harry Potter thing was completely tongue in cheek - but I disagree about the ancient writings being "works of fiction". That concept didn't even exist until centuries later.

Those ancient myths and legends were sincere beliefs, all of them. They were a pre-science approach to trying to understand reality with very limited information and tools.

And the Bible is NOT "completely different" - it's EXACTLY the same, especially in the case of the compilation that is the Old Testament.

There are some radical new ideas in the New Testament - not surprisingly, as the world was entering a new socio-economic age. The early Christians' message was brilliant marketing in a world dominated by a slave-holding Roman empire: the meek shall inherit the earth. Fantastic slogan. It worked so well that the Romans themselves realised that the smart move was to buy it out, Microsoft/Google style - and they did.

Their relaunched version of the product is still doing good business today.

None of which justifies otherwise well-educated adults in the 21st century subscribing to the stone age stories as if they were factual.

[JulieB]

However he was just as fierce in his condemnation of Hitler and the Nazis.

I've not really seen anything to support this yet Julie, the letter in 1933 certainly isn't evidence of this as I've already illustrated.

The whole history of the Bible students in Germany is in the Yearbook 1974. I am quoting from this publication

Here is the full transcript of the letter that was sent October 7th 1934

TO THE OFFICIALS OF THE GOVERNMENT:

“The Word of Jehovah God, as set out in the Holy Bible, is the supreme law, and to us it is our sole guide for the reason that we have devoted ourselves to God and are true and sincere followers of Christ Jesus.

“During the past year, and contrary to God’s law and in violation of our rights, you have forbidden us as Jehovah’s witnesses to meet together to study God’s Word and worship and serve him. In his Word he commands us that we shall not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. (Hebrews 10:25) To us Jehovah commands: ‘Ye are my witnesses that I am God. Go and tell the people my message.’ (Isaiah 43:10, 12; Isaiah 6:9; Matthew 24:14) There is a direct conflict between your law and God’s law, and, following the lead of the faithful apostles, ‘we ought to obey God rather than men,’ and this we will do. (Acts 5:29) Therefore this is to advise you that at any cost we will obey God’s commandments, will meet together for the study of his Word, and will worship and serve him as he has commanded. If your government or officers do violence to us because we are obeying God, then our blood will be upon you and you will answer to Almighty God.

“We have no interest in political affairs, but are wholly devoted to God’s kingdom under Christ his King. We will do no injury or harm to anyone. We would delight to dwell in peace and do good to all men as we have opportunity, but, since your government and its officers continue in your attempt to force us to disobey the highest law of the universe, we are compelled to now give you notice that we will, by his grace, obey Jehovah God and fully trust Him to deliver us from all oppression and oppressors.”

Also on that same date of October 7 1934

In full support of their German brothers, Jehovah’s witnesses throughout the earth met on October 7 1934 and, after united prayer to Jehovah, sent a cablegram warning the Hitler government:

“Your ill-treatment of Jehovah’s witnesses shocks all good people of earth and dishonors God’s name. Refrain from further persecuting Jehovah’s witnesses; otherwise God will destroy you and your national party.”

Later after the Nazis turned their attention towards other sections of society like the Jews etc the condemnation became even stronger. Up to this point whatever Hitler's intentions one of his main targets was indeed the Bible Students...

His response to this letter and the telegrammes was to declare "I will exterminate this brood"

[BG_Villa_Fan]

Basically the almighty awful **** sin entered the earth because a snake forced Adam to eat the fruit of knowledge(!) and this is why all people are born with an original sin and condemned to spend an eternity in hell. Such a naughty thing to do, feckin apples! What's not to believe here?

[Kiwivillan]

Yawn still going on about JW and the Nazis. What a boring side-issue that Julie is happy to contend to distract from the absurd interpretations of the bible.

[Risso]

This is the insanity that JWs put their name to:

Link

A hospital has to go the time and effort of getting a court injunction to be able to save a baby's life against the wishes of her deranged parents. If that baby survives it should be taken away from them as soon it's born.