The, he's finally GONE! Tell us your thoughts Thread

[Mantis]

Collins needs to be got rid of too

The defender who has made the most blocks and clearances in the league this season?

Ok then.

Statistics don't tell the whole story. Most of those "clearances" are just mindless hoofs which immediately give possession back to the other team and allow them to start attacking again.

[ml1dch]

No, you're right.

Far better that he just lets the other team score.

[Mantis]

No, you're right.

Far better that he just lets the other team score.

Most his hoofs are unnecessary though.

[ml1dch]

I don't think anyone would claim that his distribution was on a par with Beckenbauer.

But that doesn't stop him from being a perfectly adequate defender for an upper mid-table Premier League team.

[Mantis]

I don't think anyone would claim that his distribution was on a par with Beckenbauer.

But that doesn't stop him from being a perfectly adequate defender for an upper mid-table Premier League team.

He's not adequate for us IMO. I'm not expecting him to be our Beckenbauer, I'd just like to see less aimless hoofing. Not only that but he often gets caught out of position.

[ml1dch]

And has still made more blocks and more clearances than any other defender in the league.

If his positioning and distribution were perfect then he'd be playing for a better team. Pretty much every player we have has some pretty major deficiencies and he is no exception. But that's the level we're working at.

[barry'sboots]

You dont know if he was looking, you dont know the reasons as to why no one was signed, so you cant lay the blame with McLeish. But again maybe McLeish believed Delph could step up or Clark or Gardner or maybe he has the idea that our most experienced player and one of the best readers of the game would fit the role nicely next to someone like Jenas.

No I don't know what he was doing in the summer.

I do know the following:

- Delph is not a DCM. He has never played there in the past and shouldn't. McLeish's attempts to play him there this season have, IMO, ruined his game in the short term. He is a playmaker/box to box player.

- If he had intended Clark to step up I find it hard to understand why he hasn't given him one game in that role as yet.

- Gardner is not a DCM from what I have seen, and has barely made the bench let alone the first team.

- Stan and Jenas - we will see IF he is ever fit. I just don't see this working.

Glad you have faith though mate!!

[Mantis]

And has still made more blocks and more clearances than any other defender in the league.

If his positioning and distribution were perfect then he'd be playing for a better team. Pretty much every player we have has some pretty major deficiencies and he is no exception. But that's the level we're working at.

As I already said, those stats don't show the full picture. A lot of those clearances are just aimless hoofs under little pressure.

I don't expect him to perfect at anything, but that doesn't mean he can't be criticised for being sub-standard.

[ml1dch]

And has still made more blocks and more clearances than any other defender in the league.

If his positioning and distribution were perfect then he'd be playing for a better team. Pretty much every player we have has some pretty major deficiencies and he is no exception. But that's the level we're working at.

As I already said, those stats don't show the full picture. A lot of those clearances are just aimless hoofs under little pressure.

I don't expect him to perfect at anything, but that doesn't mean he can't be criticised for being sub-standard.

I don't think we have a single player in our squad who can't be criticised for something and Collins is certainly no exception there. And I agree it would be brilliant if more of his many clearances went straight to a Villa player, but as we have covered many times over the last two pages, if you combined that with his generally excellent tackling, heading and covering he'd probably be playing for somebody higher up the table. So your original point that we should probably be trying to get rid of him is clearly nonsense, considering who we would potentially be able to replace him with.

We're now just repeating ourselves so I'll think I'll leave the point made.

[Mantis]

And has still made more blocks and more clearances than any other defender in the league.

If his positioning and distribution were perfect then he'd be playing for a better team. Pretty much every player we have has some pretty major deficiencies and he is no exception. But that's the level we're working at.

As I already said, those stats don't show the full picture. A lot of those clearances are just aimless hoofs under little pressure.

I don't expect him to perfect at anything, but that doesn't mean he can't be criticised for being sub-standard.

I don't think we have a single player in our squad who can't be criticised for something and Collins is certainly no exception there. And I agree it would be brilliant if more of his many clearances went straight to a Villa player, but as we have covered many times over the last two pages, if you combined that with his generally excellent tackling, heading and covering he'd probably be playing for somebody higher up the table. So your original point that we should probably be trying to get rid of him is clearly nonsense, considering who we would potentially be able to replace him with.

We're now just repeating ourselves so I'll think I'll leave the point made.

Well we already have two centre-backs better than Collins in Cuellar and Clark.

You don't seem to mind Collins constantly giving the ball away but it's actually really important as when we're trying to close out games the last thing you need is one of your defenders consistently giving the ball back to the opponents.

[ml1dch]

I'd love it if he didn't do that so I'm not sure why you think I don't mind it.

But he's no more culpable than Dunne is. It's just something that comes with the territory of having nothing more than above-average defenders.

[Zatman]

Well we already have two centre-backs better than Collins in Cuellar and Clark.

NO,NO,NO,NO. Cuellar is not better than Collins, GH, MON didnt rate him ahead of Collins and personally dont think Eck does either and he knows about defenders

[Mantis]

I'd love it if he didn't do that so I'm not sure why you think I don't mind it.

But he's no more culpable than Dunne is. It's just something that comes with the territory of having nothing more than above-average defenders.

Dunne's way better than Collins, and I don't even rate Dunne as much as a lot of people on here.

[ryanvilla_1994]

Well we already have two centre-backs better than Collins in Cuellar and Clark.

NO,NO,NO,NO. Cuellar is not better than Collins, GH, MON didnt rate him ahead of Collins and personally dont think Eck does either and he knows about defenders

How do you know Mcleish doesn't rate Cuellar? He's been injured since he got here hasn't he?

[macandally]

First thing I would have done is ask for the video of last season, then talk to the coaching staff that were at the club, then talk to the players themselves. You know, that managment stuff we are paying him for.

What videos from last season would show Delph, Clark, Petrov, Gardner and Warnock cant play in this position?

And again just because we didnt get a DCM does not mean that he did not talk to the coaching staff or the players it is a very strange assumption to make.

Also you still dont know if we did try to bring a DCM in but through no fault of McLeish it fell through.

So you know that management stuff we are paying him for he might just be doing.

None of us know what is going on behind the scenes!

Managers, like players are not judged on what they might have done, or tried to do, but actually on what they do. Despite the excuses being made on his behalf, McLeish failed to address a key weakness in the team, peferring to buy players that were not necesserily as important.

[macandally]

Yep, we really needed a winger so we can play the 4-2-3-1 formation.

no we dont, the 4-2-3-1 formation is the reason why everything is so dire. It's a piss poor tactic and its dull and negative.

It's basically 4-5-1 which leaves Bent isolated and its the reason why we create so few chances and have had least shots on target tahn anybody else in the premier league. There is no need for 2 holding midfielders at all. The formation is horible and the sooner its ditched the better IMO.

We need to play Gabby and Bent up top together

Difficult to convey sarcasm on a forum, but that is what I was saying. We spent nearly 10 million on a player who doesnt appear to fit into our system.

[macandally]

Think there was general agreement in the summer that AMc had plugged the most glaring gaps that had opened up in the squad. I don't remember anyone complaining that we had filled the GK, RB and winger x2 slot - indeed we undoubtedly didn't do enough in that last area.

So what is all this now about the obvious need to prioritise defensive midfield?

It wasn't a priority then and won't be until next summer. Let's hope AMc has some serious money to spend then, but somehow I doubt it.[/quote]

I hope there is money to spend and we find the right manager to spend it. Not really interested in the likes of Zigic coming through the VP gates!!!

[briny_ear]

Think there was general agreement in the summer that AMc had plugged the most glaring gaps that had opened up in the squad. I don't remember anyone complaining that we had filled the GK, RB and winger x2 slot - indeed we undoubtedly didn't do enough in that last area.

So what is all this now about the obvious need to prioritise defensive midfield?

It wasn't a priority then and won't be until next summer. Let's hope AMc has some serious money to spend then, but somehow I doubt it.[/quote]

I hope there is money to spend and we find the right manager to spend it. Not really interested in the likes of Zigic coming through the VP gates!!!

Not sure you got that quoting stuff quite right, Macandally.

I think every one would be amazed if McLeish brought in Zigic as a defensive midfielder.

[stanthemanisgod]

I wonder with Young out the door, Lichaj unavailable, Cuellar unavailable and only Herd as a viable RB how many people would argue he'd got his priorities wrong if he'd gone out and bought a defensive midfileder who had thus far performed to the same level as Hutton but it was at right back where teams were cutting us apart and setting up goal scoring opportunity after goal scoring opportunity.

I honestly dont think he can do anything right in some people's eyes.

On what appears to be a very tight budget he went out signed an excellent GK, an attacking player who we all agree has much more class than he is currently showing, a proven centre midfielder at upper PL level who should be hungry to show what he can do and a proven right back at this level.

Now as far as I can see if the club had managed the NRC situation a little better we pretty much wouldn't have anything to moan about personnel wise and we could all focus on discussing our views on formations and styles of football.

Sure we would all like better quality sprinkeld throughout the side but I seriously think we have to be realistic about what we can attract at the moment both in terms of reputation and wages we're prepared to pay.

It's a bit like me telling you I want a 3 yr old car that performs like an Aston Martin but I'm only going to give you the value of 12 year old fiesta to buy it with, and then blaming you for not being able to provide what I asked for. I mean some people would argue that I dont even need a car with the performance of an Aston Martin anyway....

EDIT: Forgot about Beye (But that's easily done)

[KHV]

Yep, we really needed a winger so we can play the 4-2-3-1 formation.

no we dont, the 4-2-3-1 formation is the reason why everything is so dire. It's a piss poor tactic and its dull and negative.

It's basically 4-5-1 which leaves Bent isolated and its the reason why we create so few chances and have had least shots on target tahn anybody else in the premier league. There is no need for 2 holding midfielders at all. The formation is horible and the sooner its ditched the better IMO.

We need to play Gabby and Bent up top together

Completely disagree with this. Barca play 4-6-0 effectively but they are anything but defensive. A 4-2-3-1 can be attacking as any formation if you get the right players playing it properly. Look at the Plop side a few years back with Mascherano and Alonso holding and Gerard, Kuyt and one other supporting Torres - probably the best football they have played in years.

Playing Heskey on the right of the three and not having a DCM in the two is a big part of the reason, IMO, it is pretty ineffective for us.

Also, the manager himself said we were playing a 4-3-1-2 during Saturday's match. Seemed like the strikers took it in turn to play as the "1," as Bent was tracking pretty far back.