The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[snowychap]

 

And for some strange reason, you've skipped the 1947 UN Partition Map...

 

Isn't it the second map shown? The one headed 'UN Partition plan 1947'?

[snowychap]

You can chekck http://www.palwatch.org/

There's a lot of stuff over there.

There certainly is a lot of 'stuff' over there.

Picked out at random from under the heading Europe funds terror and hate promotion:

From Wafa News Agency's English website:

"RAMALLAH, May 7, 2014 – Jerusalem Water Undertaking and the German Government signed Wednesday a €8.8 agreement to support the water loss reduction Program.

The agreement was signed by Minister of Planning Mohammad Abu Ramadan, Head of Water Authority Shaddad Attili, Chairman of the Board of Directors for Jerusalem Water Undertaking Fawzi al-‘Abed, all representing the Palestinian side, and KFW Development Bank Office in the Palestinian Territories Thomas Eisenbach.

Under the agreement, the German government will offer financial support in order to reduce water losses in the West Bank, including C Area, and East Jerusalem.

Abu Ramadan underscored the importance of this agreement noting that the German government and the Jerusalem Water Undertaking would contribute €8 million and €800 thousands in financial aid for the project.

He added that the agreement would contribute to enhancing the quality of services offered to Palestinian citizens through reducing water losses and support the sustainable management of water sources through developing infrastructure that would improve living conditions and water resources in Palestine.

Underscoring the vital contribution of this agreement to leveraging water sector in Palestine, ‘Attili was hopeful that more projects would be implemented in the field of water.

Eisenbach stated that this agreement was signed in the framework of promoting German Palestinian cooperation, highlighting the Palestinian government’s transparency and integrity in managing development projects.

In 2013 the German government had offered €55 million 40% of which had been earmarked for supporting water and sanitation sector."

[peterms]

But the Israelis are bombing the water and sewage infrastructure, stealing Palestinian water in the illegally occupied territories, and are discharging raw sewage from their illegal settlements on stolen land, directly into land where Palestinians are living.

On a far smaller scale, they train their children to throw piss from above onto Palestinian food markets. Trivial compared to the white phosphorous and other uncountable war crimes, but it illustrates the occupier mentality. Fascist scum.

[NurembergVillan]

 

 

What they need is a water park and it could be the new Dubai. 

 

 

They had one, but because it allowed men and women to mingle it was burned down 6 months after opening.  There's no helping some people.  You wouldn't get people burning down Rhyl Sun Centre.

 

[Awol]

The answer is simple, end the occupation. If Palestinians continue to attack Israel after that then pound them to dust.

I accept, but as I said - there is no occupation in Gaza. They have an Israeli-Free borderline with Egypt which is usually closed due to the hatred between the secular regime in Egypt and the Islamic lunatics of Hammas.

I'm no supporter of Hammas and their refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist is clearly a problem, but from your side of the fence it's not an existential one.

In my view it's also impossible to de-link and treat the situations in Gaza and the West Bank as two separate issues. Right or wrong this is now the territory of Arab Muslims with the same natural rights to the land as the longest established Jews.

By ending the occupation Israel would remove the last shred of legitimacy Hammas and others can claim for their campaign against you. Further aggressive action by them could then be met with overwhelming force and the international community couldn't say a damn thing about it.

The problem, as you seem to accept, is the occupation itself which is nothing more than a dressed up land grab and the stripping of natural rights from decent ordinary people. As long as that situation continues it will generate hate and resentment that makes perpetual conflict inevitable.

Take it from people with some experience that stealing other peoples countries doesn't end well. Israelis are highly civilised people, you know this.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Awol

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

If any group of people in the modern world base their life (And their children's) and the underlying culture of a supposed country around the belief that there 0.01 % truth in any Gods existence, that alone means that any claim to any land or the collection of people involved to be classed as a "Nation" is 100 % false and nullified.  Future reporting of any such conflicts and disagreements between groups such as this should be from a distance with the tone of such reports changed to reflect the lack of intellect of all parties involved.  IMO

[Rugeley Villa]

 

 

 

What they need is a water park and it could be the new Dubai. 

 

 

They had one, but because it allowed men and women to mingle it was burned down 6 months after opening.  There's no helping some people.  You wouldn't get people burning down Rhyl Sun Centre.

 

 

bloody stupid some of the beliefs they have.

[snowychap]

You wouldn't get people burning down Rhyl Sun Centre.

Droitwich Lido is another story, however.

[chrisp65]

 

 

 

If Israel waned to obliterate Gaza - Israel has the ability to do so. You know that as well as I know that.

 

Israel has nothing to gain by killing civilians. 

 

 

 

I'm struggling to even write something civil. So I'm giving myself a time out.

Edited July 15, 2014 by chrisp65

[Glarmorgan]

 

 

And for some strange reason, you've skipped the 1947 UN Partition Map...

 

Isn't it the second map shown? The one headed 'UN Partition plan 1947'?

 

 

Yes... I was referring to the textual part. Quite easy to bring up maps such as these and say - look how the Palestinians were deprived of their state by the Jews, even though it is far from the truth.

 

All the Arabs and Palestinians had to do it to say "Yes" to the UN partition plan and that was it. The chose to rally the troops - Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon and even some Muslim soldiers from Bosnia, all enjoying the moral support of Haj Amin el Husseini, Hitler's ally.

They lost,

[Glarmorgan]

 

 

The answer is simple, end the occupation. If Palestinians continue to attack Israel after that then pound them to dust.

I accept, but as I said - there is no occupation in Gaza. They have an Israeli-Free borderline with Egypt which is usually closed due to the hatred between the secular regime in Egypt and the Islamic lunatics of Hammas.

I'm no supporter of Hammas and their refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist is clearly a problem, but from your side of the fence it's not an existential one.

In my view it's also impossible to de-link and treat the situations in Gaza and the West Bank as two separate issues. Right or wrong this is now the territory of Arab Muslims with the same natural rights to the land as the longest established Jews.

By ending the occupation Israel would remove the last shred of legitimacy Hammas and others can claim for their campaign against you. Further aggressive action by them could then be met with overwhelming force and the international community couldn't say a damn thing about it.

The problem, as you seem to accept, is the occupation itself which is nothing more than a dressed up land grab and the stripping of natural rights from decent ordinary people. As long as that situation continues it will generate hate and resentment that makes perpetual conflict inevitable.

Take it from people with some experience that stealing other peoples countries doesn't end well. Israelis are highly civilised people, you know this.

 

 

I fully agree with the general idea. Benjamin Netanyahu is hardly mt favorite prime minister and I did not vote for him of for any of the other parties currently in the coalition. I reject any idea of annexation or continuous control over the Palestinians. From my point of view, leave human rights aside for a moment, its in Israel best interest to draw a borderline and let them live their lives. This is how I see things.

 

Still, and from your responses I know you are a bit familiar with what's going on here - the situation is much more complicated than this, as the Palestinians themselves are finding all sorts for excuses for not making any progress in the peace process. They keep insisting on a partial right of return and so on. In addition, the gap between Hammas and Fatah is huge. That is why there are no real relationship between the West Bank and Gaza. Both act as independent entities and as it seems, the Fatah is quite pleased to see Hammas on its knees. In order for Israel to negotiate with one representing body - the Palestinians should unite around such a body. As long as this does not happen - what can Israel do? Force the Hammas to recognize our right to exist?

 

There is no "complete good" vs. "complete evil" here. There is no "if only we'll give them what they want peace will come".

[Glarmorgan]

I'm disappointed to see anyone at all, even an Israeli, attempting to justify the hideous war crimes of the apartheid state which Israel has become.

They want to drive the Palestinians from their own country. They recognise no law which interferes with this aim. They are utterly ruthless and pitiless in their annexation of this land which they are stealing, and the genocide of the people who live there.

It is an utter disgrace. Vicious, amoral, scum.

 

Genocide?!

 

Our beloved neighbors in Syria and Iraq give a better example of what genocide is. According to BeTzelem - a left wing organization - 36 Palestinians were killed by Israeli armed forces throughout 2013. This was, according to BeTzelem, a 5 year high!! Now, for the sake of argument, let's say all 36 deaths were unjustified - this is genocide?! Are these numbers represent a methodical killing of the people? The London bombings toll was (or should it be "were"?) double than that.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

"They lost,"

 

 

 

You all lost,  none of you know it yet though but everyone else on the planet does.  Trust me on this,  if you argue for either side so vehemently then I suggest that there is no way to "WIN" for you or any of the participants.  Even a Win is a loss,  you lose more personally and morally than any piece of land could ever give you.  Funny thing about maps,  as with God(s) and religion in general,  they are all by definition man made.  They mean nothing.  

[snowychap]

They lost,

And those two words convey all I need to know about this from your side (even allowing for your opinion being at the reasonable end of* the Israeli spectrum).

 

*Edited - spelling.

Edited July 16, 2014 by snowychap

[Glarmorgan]

They lost the war. Yes - the state of Israel exists only because they lost the war. If they'd won - I wouldn't be here right now.

 

Once again - I wish to remind you, there Palestinians weren't an independent army at the time. The neighboring countries waged war and their plan was to annex the land for their own purposes. They did just that in the countries they eventually occupied (West Bank, for instance). Israel won the war against its neighbors. The Arabs who stayed put are currently citizens of the Israeli state, enjoying this democracy, being a part of the parliament, enjoying all the rights the non-Muslim citizens do.

[snowychap]

If Israel waned to obliterate Gaza - Israel has the ability to do so. You know that as well as I know that.

There are more ways to 'obliterate' somewhere than to lay waste to it overnight.

I don't think that it is a serious option to wipe out Gaza in one fell swoop so the use of this kind of comment as an indicator that somehow Israel is being merciful in its actions or holding back through a duty of care to civilians in Gaza is pretty much the nonsense mainstay of one line of the Israeli PR machine (it doesn't really stand well with the 'they lost' and the 'you hit the boy with the sub machine gun and you are surprised when he guns down your family' attitude).

[snowychap]

And for some strange reason, you've skipped the 1947 UN Partition Map...

Isn't it the second map shown? The one headed 'UN Partition plan 1947'?

 

Yes... I was referring to the textual part.

There was no 'textual part' of the post.

As far as I can see, the poster posted the picture of those four maps and that was it - thereafter Trent posted something about a water park.

[Awol]

The answer is simple, end the occupation. If Palestinians continue to attack Israel after that then pound them to dust.

I accept, but as I said - there is no occupation in Gaza. They have an Israeli-Free borderline with Egypt which is usually closed due to the hatred between the secular regime in Egypt and the Islamic lunatics of Hammas.

I'm no supporter of Hammas and their refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist is clearly a problem, but from your side of the fence it's not an existential one.

In my view it's also impossible to de-link and treat the situations in Gaza and the West Bank as two separate issues. Right or wrong this is now the territory of Arab Muslims with the same natural rights to the land as the longest established Jews.

By ending the occupation Israel would remove the last shred of legitimacy Hammas and others can claim for their campaign against you. Further aggressive action by them could then be met with overwhelming force and the international community couldn't say a damn thing about it.

The problem, as you seem to accept, is the occupation itself which is nothing more than a dressed up land grab and the stripping of natural rights from decent ordinary people. As long as that situation continues it will generate hate and resentment that makes perpetual conflict inevitable.

Take it from people with some experience that stealing other peoples countries doesn't end well. Israelis are highly civilised people, you know this.

I fully agree with the general idea. Benjamin Netanyahu is hardly mt favorite prime minister and I did not vote for him of for any of the other parties currently in the coalition. I reject any idea of annexation or continuous control over the Palestinians. From my point of view, leave human rights aside for a moment, its in Israel best interest to draw a borderline and let them live their lives. This is how I see things.

Still, and from your responses I know you are a bit familiar with what's going on here - the situation is much more complicated than this, as the Palestinians themselves are finding all sorts for excuses for not making any progress in the peace process. They keep insisting on a partial right of return and so on. In addition, the gap between Hammas and Fatah is huge. That is why there are no real relationship between the West Bank and Gaza. Both act as independent entities and as it seems, the Fatah is quite pleased to see Hammas on its knees. In order for Israel to negotiate with one representing body - the Palestinians should unite around such a body. As long as this does not happen - what can Israel do? Force the Hammas to recognize our right to exist?

There is no "complete good" vs. "complete evil" here. There is no "if only we'll give them what they want peace will come".

I'm sorry but the well documented illegal settlement programme in the West Bank, contrary to all international law, cannot be reasonably described as anything but annexation.

I am aware of the differences between Fatah and Hammas, and the purge of the former carried out by the latter in Gaza some years ago. But times they are a changing and Hammas is shit out of friends. The regime in Egypt will throw them to the wolves as long as the west overlooks the reimposition of military rule; the supply routes through Sudan are thoroughly compromised - not least by direct IDF intervention when necessary; the Jordanians are firmly onside and watching their own backs right now; Assad is up to his neck in trouble and the Iranians have their near abroad to worry about in Iraq as Jihadistan gets established by ISIS.

The point is that regional borders are already changing and two of your notional enemies in Iraq and Syria are gone and not coming back. New threats will emerge for sure, but this is a golden opportunity to go for a final settlement by withdrawing completely from the occupied West Bank. As part of that process I reckon we could get you into NATO to guarantee the '67 borders and thus the State of Israel. Forever.

The old thinking doesn't reflect the new reality that is being shaped right now. It would be a tragedy to let that opportunity pass, IMHO.

EDIT: just realised the first part of my post was arguing a point you'd already conceded. Apologies and withdrawn.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Awol

[Glarmorgan]

 

If Israel waned to obliterate Gaza - Israel has the ability to do so. You know that as well as I know that.

There are more ways to 'obliterate' somewhere than to lay waste to it overnight.

I don't think that it is a serious option to wipe out Gaza in one fell swoop so the use of this kind of comment as an indicator that somehow Israel is being merciful in its actions or holding back through a duty of care to civilians in Gaza is pretty much the nonsense mainstay of one line of the Israeli PR machine (it doesn't really stand well with the 'they lost' and the 'you hit the boy with the sub machine gun and you are surprised when he guns down your family' attitude).

 

 

 

 

 

 

And for some strange reason, you've skipped the 1947 UN Partition Map...

 

Isn't it the second map shown? The one headed 'UN Partition plan 1947'?

 

 

Yes... I was referring to the textual part.

 

There was no 'textual part' of the post.

As far as I can see, the poster posted the picture of those four maps and that was it - thereafter Trent posted something about a water park.

 

OK... I sometime forget this is not done in Hebrew so I miss out on things or leave my comments a bit opaque... I was referring to the lack of any textual. Any person looking at these maps without any textual addition will most probably come to the wrong conclusion, or at least possess a lack of knowledge.

[Glarmorgan]

 

 

 

 

The answer is simple, end the occupation. If Palestinians continue to attack Israel after that then pound them to dust.

I accept, but as I said - there is no occupation in Gaza. They have an Israeli-Free borderline with Egypt which is usually closed due to the hatred between the secular regime in Egypt and the Islamic lunatics of Hammas.

I'm no supporter of Hammas and their refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist is clearly a problem, but from your side of the fence it's not an existential one.

In my view it's also impossible to de-link and treat the situations in Gaza and the West Bank as two separate issues. Right or wrong this is now the territory of Arab Muslims with the same natural rights to the land as the longest established Jews.

By ending the occupation Israel would remove the last shred of legitimacy Hammas and others can claim for their campaign against you. Further aggressive action by them could then be met with overwhelming force and the international community couldn't say a damn thing about it.

The problem, as you seem to accept, is the occupation itself which is nothing more than a dressed up land grab and the stripping of natural rights from decent ordinary people. As long as that situation continues it will generate hate and resentment that makes perpetual conflict inevitable.

Take it from people with some experience that stealing other peoples countries doesn't end well. Israelis are highly civilised people, you know this.

I fully agree with the general idea. Benjamin Netanyahu is hardly mt favorite prime minister and I did not vote for him of for any of the other parties currently in the coalition. I reject any idea of annexation or continuous control over the Palestinians. From my point of view, leave human rights aside for a moment, its in Israel best interest to draw a borderline and let them live their lives. This is how I see things.

Still, and from your responses I know you are a bit familiar with what's going on here - the situation is much more complicated than this, as the Palestinians themselves are finding all sorts for excuses for not making any progress in the peace process. They keep insisting on a partial right of return and so on. In addition, the gap between Hammas and Fatah is huge. That is why there are no real relationship between the West Bank and Gaza. Both act as independent entities and as it seems, the Fatah is quite pleased to see Hammas on its knees. In order for Israel to negotiate with one representing body - the Palestinians should unite around such a body. As long as this does not happen - what can Israel do? Force the Hammas to recognize our right to exist?

There is no "complete good" vs. "complete evil" here. There is no "if only we'll give them what they want peace will come".

I'm sorry but the well documented illegal settlement programme in the West Bank, contrary to all international law, cannot be reasonably described as anything but annexation.

I am aware of the differences between Fatah and Hammas, and the purge of the former carried out by the latter in Gaza some years ago. But times they are a changing and Hammas is shit out of friends. The regime in Egypt will throw them to the wolves as long as the west overlooks the reimposition of military rule; the supply routes through Sudan are thoroughly compromised - not least by direct IDF intervention when necessary; the Jordanians are firmly onside and watching their own backs right now; Assad is up to his neck in trouble and the Iranians have their near abroad to worry about in Iraq as Jihadistan gets established by ISIS.

The point is that regional borders are already changing and two of your notional enemies in Iraq and Syria are gone and not coming back. New threats will emerge for sure, but this is a golden opportunity to go for a final settlement by withdrawing completely from the occupied West Bank. As part of that process I reckon we could get you into NATO to guarantee the '67 borders and thus the State of Israel. Forever.

The old thinking doesn't reflect the new reality that is being shaped right now. It would be a tragedy to let that opportunity pass, IMHO.

EDIT: just realised the first part of my post was arguing a point you'd already conceded. Apologies and withdrawn.

 

 

First - there are fears here regarding our Eastern border due to the huge progress made by ISIS. One of the main reasons for Israel to keep hold on the Jordanian border is to block any option for an open corridor from Iran and Iraq to the center of Israel. If ISIS will turn their attention towards Jordan (and this is a thing the Jordanians fear as well) - you can never expect how things will go on.

 

So I agree - there is no immediate threat from any of our neighbors in terms of Army vs. Army. Still, groups such as ISIS or those Muslim loonies in Syria are not operating so far away and as soon as they'll end their dealing with their Muslim counterparts, they will most probably turn their attention towards Israel. This is not something you can consider as far fetched.

 

I am not the one to automatically approve everything the Israeli government does. My past comments will back this claim up (not including the pics I've uploaded to the NSFW thread...) - but it is too often when I find it hard, as an Israeli, to try and see where the Palestinian leadership wish to take this. They hold the negotiations with a "you should give us everything we want or else we take nothing" approach which isn't working too well for them. I don't expect a peace loving neighbor who will immediately ignore all past occurrences (and this works for the Israelis as well) - but I do hope the Palestinians will at least try to cope with some of the issues Israel brought up. For instance - why the hell are they oppose to officially recognize Israel as a Jewish state? What's in it for them? Such thing makes you wonder - maybe they see the Palestinian state as a step towards the 1948 lines? I don't say that's why they want - I say that I, as an Israeli, find it hard to come up with a different option for this.