The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Glarmorgan]

Surely in this instance, the Israelis are the oppressors...

 

And you say that because of what? As I wrote - Gaza strip has no Israeli forces in it. None what so ever. No soldiers and no civilians. Still, the Hammas feel the urge to launch their rockets at Israeli cities. 

 

I wonder what brings you to your conclusion? If you were talking about the West Bank - you would have a point. But you're not. You're talking about Gaza. What more Israel needs to do in order not to be the "oppressor" in this case? 

[snowychap]

As I wrote - Gaza strip has no Israeli forces in it. None what so ever.

It did briefly last night/this morning.

[Glarmorgan]

 

As I wrote - Gaza strip has no Israeli forces in it. None what so ever.

It did briefly last night/this morning.

 

 

And a couple of days ago there were none. A couple of months back - zero. 12 months ago - again - none. And still, rockets flew all over Israel.

So, if there weren't any Israelis in Gaza then - why did Hammas choose to arm Gaza with rockets rather than invest in the economy?  What prevents the Hammas from taking care of its poor citizens? Living peacefully next to Israel? Hammas knows exactly who he's up against. They know Israel is superior. They know Israel has the Iron Dome on its side. Still - they decided the right thing to do it attack. Now they suffer the consequences of this decision.

[chrisp65]

 

Surely in this instance, the Israelis are the oppressors...

 

And you say that because of what? As I wrote - Gaza strip has no Israeli forces in it. None what so ever. No soldiers and no civilians. Still, the Hammas feel the urge to launch their rockets at Israeli cities. 

 

I wonder what brings you to your conclusion? If you were talking about the West Bank - you would have a point. But you're not. You're talking about Gaza. What more Israel needs to do in order not to be the "oppressor" in this case? 

 

 

I'm really really not interested in or persuaded by any apologist for either side. The cool logic of the Israeli excusers or the passion of the Palestinian freedom cause, trotted out with faux emotion and fake logic because they've all already practised the speeches.

 

There is not a goody and a baddy, as lovely as it is to imagine white hats and black hats both sides have murdering psychotic shits that are getting away with slaughter in the name of fuzzy revenge for the revenge for the previous revenge?

 

The difference being, the Palestinian nutters can control a poor largely uneducated populace and get willing numbers on their side whereas the Israeli nutters might have less numbers willing to die for a poorly thought out cause, but have greater access to more efficient shiny modern weaponry. There can be few things that show a population they are in the right than access to the USA's military toy shop. 

 

Neither side is right. Revenge killing will not put an end to this. Both sides have to accept that this is not the means to any useful end. But both sides already know this. Both sides accept that the occasional skirmish like this with a few hundred dead in a population of millions is fine if it keeps the various factions in charge of their piece of dusty earth.

 

It really is a living breathing example of the futility of war. Those in charge on both sides must be getting one hell of a pervy kick out of it all at the moment.

[Glarmorgan]

 

 

Surely in this instance, the Israelis are the oppressors...

 

And you say that because of what? As I wrote - Gaza strip has no Israeli forces in it. None what so ever. No soldiers and no civilians. Still, the Hammas feel the urge to launch their rockets at Israeli cities. 

 

I wonder what brings you to your conclusion? If you were talking about the West Bank - you would have a point. But you're not. You're talking about Gaza. What more Israel needs to do in order not to be the "oppressor" in this case? 

 

 

I'm really really not interested in or persuaded by any apologist for either side. The cool logic of the Israeli excusers or the passion of the Palestinian freedom cause, trotted out with faux emotion and fake logic because they've all already practised the speeches.

 

There is not a goody and a baddy, as lovely as it is to imagine white hats and black hats both sides have murdering psychotic shits that are getting away with slaughter in the name of fuzzy revenge for the revenge for the previous revenge?

 

The difference being, the Palestinian nutters can control a poor largely uneducated populace and get willing numbers on their side whereas the Israeli nutters might have less numbers willing to die for a poorly thought out cause, but have greater access to more efficient shiny modern weaponry. There can be few things that show a population they are in the right than access to the USA's military toy shop. 

 

Neither side is right. Revenge killing will not put an end to this. Both sides have to accept that this is not the means to any useful end. But both sides already know this. Both sides accept that the occasional skirmish like this with a few hundred dead in a population of millions is fine if it keeps the various factions in charge of their piece of dusty earth.

 

It really is a living breathing example of the futility of war. Those in charge on both sides must be getting one hell of a pervy kick out of it all at the moment.

 

 

Well, I might even partially agree with you in this matter if you were to separate the Palestinians to the ones in the West Bank and the ones in Gaza (as they do themselves). 

 

I clearly think that the negotiations with the West Bank Palestinians are poorly held by both leaders. Neither is really willing to make a drastic move towards the other side, always seeking for excuses and ideas to halt any possible progress. 

Gaza is a completely different thing. As I said - Israel withdrew its forces from Gaza and Gaza is controlled by a governing body who dislikes Abu Mazen even more than Bibi Netanyahu does. 

 

Personally, I am all for the two states solution. I honestly believe this is the only way. The problem with Gaza is that the Hammas does not see this as an option. Hammas charter clearly calls for the annihilation of the state of Israel and as long as this is the case, and as long they are actively pursuing this goal - nothing can be done for Gaza. 

[blandy]

Independent

It’s about land. The Israelis of Sederot are coming under rocket fire from the Palestinians of Gaza and now the Palestinians are getting their comeuppance. Sure. But wait, how come all those Palestinians – all 1.5 million – are crammed into Gaza in the first place? Well, their families once lived, didn’t they, in what is now called Israel? And got chucked out – or fled for their lives – when the Israeli state was created.

And – a drawing in of breath is now perhaps required – the people who lived in Sederot in early 1948 were not Israelis, but Palestinian Arabs. Their village was called Huj. Nor were they enemies of Israel. Two years earlier, these same Arabs had actually hidden Jewish Haganah fighters from the British Army. But when the Israeli army turned up at Huj on 31 May 1948, they expelled all the Arab villagers – to the Gaza Strip! Refugees, they became. David Ben Gurion (Israel’s first Prime Minister) called it an “unjust and unjustified action”. Too bad. The  Palestinians of Huj were never allowed back.

And today, well over 6,000 descendants of the Palestinians from Huj – now Sederot – live in the squalor of Gaza, among the “terrorists” Israel is claiming to destroy and who are shooting at what was Huj. Interesting story.

And same again for Israel’s right to self-defence. We heard it again today. What if the people of London were being rocketed like the people of Israel? Wouldn’t they strike back? Well yes, but we Brits don’t have more than a million former inhabitants of the UK cooped up in refugee camps over a few square miles around Hastings.

The last time this specious argument was used was in 2008, when Israel invaded Gaza and killed at least 1,100 Palestinians (exchange rate: 1,100 to 13). What if Dublin was under rocket attack, the Israeli ambassador asked then? But the UK town of Crossmaglen in Northern Ireland was under rocket attack from the Irish Republic in the 1970s – yet the RAF didn’t bomb Dublin in retaliation, killing Irish women and children. In Canada in 2008, Israel’s supporters were making the same fraudulent point. What if the people of Vancouver or Toronto or Montreal were being rocket-attacked from the suburbs of their own cities? How would they feel? But the Canadians haven’t pushed the original inhabitants of Canadian territory into refugee camps.

[Glarmorgan]

 

Independent

 

It’s about land. The Israelis of Sederot are coming under rocket fire from the Palestinians of Gaza and now the Palestinians are getting their comeuppance. Sure. But wait, how come all those Palestinians – all 1.5 million – are crammed into Gaza in the first place? Well, their families once lived, didn’t they, in what is now called Israel? And got chucked out – or fled for their lives – when the Israeli state was created.

And – a drawing in of breath is now perhaps required – the people who lived in Sederot in early 1948 were not Israelis, but Palestinian Arabs. Their village was called Huj. Nor were they enemies of Israel. Two years earlier, these same Arabs had actually hidden Jewish Haganah fighters from the British Army. But when the Israeli army turned up at Huj on 31 May 1948, they expelled all the Arab villagers – to the Gaza Strip! Refugees, they became. David Ben Gurion (Israel’s first Prime Minister) called it an “unjust and unjustified action”. Too bad. The  Palestinians of Huj were never allowed back.

And today, well over 6,000 descendants of the Palestinians from Huj – now Sederot – live in the squalor of Gaza, among the “terrorists” Israel is claiming to destroy and who are shooting at what was Huj. Interesting story.

And same again for Israel’s right to self-defence. We heard it again today. What if the people of London were being rocketed like the people of Israel? Wouldn’t they strike back? Well yes, but we Brits don’t have more than a million former inhabitants of the UK cooped up in refugee camps over a few square miles around Hastings.

The last time this specious argument was used was in 2008, when Israel invaded Gaza and killed at least 1,100 Palestinians (exchange rate: 1,100 to 13). What if Dublin was under rocket attack, the Israeli ambassador asked then? But the UK town of Crossmaglen in Northern Ireland was under rocket attack from the Irish Republic in the 1970s – yet the RAF didn’t bomb Dublin in retaliation, killing Irish women and children. In Canada in 2008, Israel’s supporters were making the same fraudulent point. What if the people of Vancouver or Toronto or Montreal were being rocket-attacked from the suburbs of their own cities? How would they feel? But the Canadians haven’t pushed the original inhabitants of Canadian territory into refugee camps.

 

 

Ahhh... I just LOVE these arguments. Since the Israeli conquered them at 1948 - it makes sense they are currently firing rockets at Israel. And as Israel is being attacked, it should take a "proportional" response only - allowing this fight to be a "fair fight".

 

A load of rubbish. First, and this is a massive discussion - the ongoing claim of the 1948 - who started this war? Which of the sides accepted the UN resolution? The standards in 1948 were not as "humane" as they are today. Mr. Fisk must surely remember the way the RAF treated Dresden. This will not happen today, as times has changes, as standards has changed. Some for the good, some for the worse. So now these poor refugees from 1948 (I wonder how many 70 years old are firing the rockets) have the right to express their dissatisfaction by launching rockets to Israeli cities. Nice thinking. Not a word about the 19 years under Egyptian regime, not a word about the 8 years of no Israeli presence and the way Hammas decided to make use of these 8 years. Nope. They are retarded Palestinians who just need to express their anger someway.

 

And the disproportionate response - I, as an Israeli citizen, want my army and my country to do what they can to stop this. If Hammas chooses to wage war against a much stronger opponent - he should expect the stronger opponent to use his superior tools. This idiotic count of how many deaths on each side. What is there was no Iron Dome? What is Israel had 150 casualties at this point? Would this make Israel more "right"? Israel's claims more "sound"? "legit"? You're 1.5 million people packed into Gaza? Maybe you should pick other ways to "show your dissatisfaction" than launching your rockets from within these highly populated areas? BTW - earlier today Israel informed the Palestinians to clear their houses in a specific region. Hammas called them back, as civilian casualties are not something they care about, as long as it serves their cause. 

 

The Hammas blatantly call for the extermination of Israel, but the fault is Israel's. If only it didn't exist - a world peace could finally be achieved. Oh. The Hammas wants to exterminate not only the state of Israel but all Jews as well? That is not a problem - we all know that Jews are the causes for world wide terror. I also invited you to try and figure out what happened to the Chiristian population in Gaza. Try to locate them. You'll have a hard time, as we all know, that alongside Israel and Jews, the Arab Christians are the cause for all bad things in the world, therefore they have to be oppressed and driven away. Now, finally, the peace can be achieved. Hurray!!!

 

ISsid it before, I'll say it again - zero attacks from Gaza towards Israel equal zero casualties in Gaza. As simple as that.

[AVFCforever1991]

[Glarmorgan]

 

What you've just brought up here is a warning shot, fired 10-60 minutes before the actual bomb will hit the house. Strange, huh? Warning your foe before bombing him, so he'll have the chance to clear the house.

[MakemineVanilla]

I think the only question people want answering concerns the legal and moral basis for Israel building settlements on land it has confiscated from Palestinians?

 

Israel's claim to want peace while continuing to build settlements undermines their claims of self-defence.

[Glarmorgan]

I think the only question people want answering concerns the legal and moral basis for Israel building settlements on land it has confiscated from Palestinians?

 

Israel's claim to want peace while continuing to build settlements undermines their claims of self-defence.

 

This is a huge issue and it is a controversial one even in Israel itself. I think that the settlements has to be divided into two groups - the large and well based one, and the smaller ones. The large ones cannot be just dismantled and in this case, as I see it, should be kept under Israeli control. This should involve land exchanges, so the Palestinians will eventually get their piece of land.

 

You should know there are a couple of other options which rise (ignoring the one claiming "everything is ours and that's that" which I disagree with):

1. Upon a creation of the Palestinian state in Judea and Samaria - the Israeli citizens within the settlements will have the option to stay put and live in the Palestinian state, under Palestinian authority and rules. The Palestinians disagree to this (ignoring the same status which exists in Israel), claiming they want Jewish-free state.

 

2. Some call not only for a land exchange but also - a population exchange. There are large Arab cities within Israel. The idea is to redraw the border so that the new Palestinian state will include these Israel-Arab cities as well (Um El Fahm, for instance). This solution will help to separate the Israeli-Jews from the Arabs-Muslims and without the need to get anyone out of his actual home. The Arab-Israeli population opposes this completely with all sorts of strange excuses, only due to the fact they don't want to say "well, it's better to live in Israel, under its democracy, then under Palestinian rule".

 

This is a very delicate matter which cannot be solved with "get all Jews out". What with east Jerusalem? Or Gush Ezion (which was occupied by the Jordanians in 1948)? The only way to solve this is by both sides to agree to give up on something.

 

Mind you this does not relate the situation in Gaza as all Israeli settlement in Gaza were dismantled in 2006, as a part of what is called here "The Separation Plan". The idea was to completely withdraw all Israeli presence from Gaza, to let the Gazans run their lives without us. Ever since that day - the failed in doing. Even when it comes to electricity - they are dependent on the  Israel Electric Company (and in other words - while they shoot at Israel, they still "enjoy" the electricity coming from... Israel). Some of the claims against the establishment of a Palestinians State originates from what Hammas has done in Gaza. The claim is, sorry for the level of English - we've tried it once and instead of creating a peace loving Gaza nation, the Palestinians in Gaza invested Millions of dollars into armament and fortifications. What if the same happens in Judea and Samaria (and if you know the map of Israel you know what a strategic problem this might be, as the city of Qalqilia, for instance, is about 20 minutes by car From Tel Aviv)?

 

Quite frankly, it bothers me as well. Nothing - nothing!!! - prevented the Hammas to invest in Gaza's coastline, making it an attractive place for tourists. Instead, they dig thousands of underground tunnels (using cement provided by Israel) to be used to store rockets or get into Israeli territory for terror purposes (Gilad Shalit incident, for instance).

[chrisp65]

Are these arguments distributed and rehearsed? Or are they just absorbed by exposure to one sided propaganda? 

 

Glar, you are the third person I've heard or read in two days that has used this argument of Hammas could invest in hotels and attract tourism but instead they spent it digging tunnels. To the point that the wording is suspiciously similar. Was it some recent speech or article that people have been asked to distribute?

 

To be fair, it's something I've often wondered about refugees all over the world. Why don't they stop moaning and get the tourists in.

 

To be fair, it's brilliantly funny in the best tradition of the blackest humour.

 

Another variation I've heard, Israel has invested their money in defence whereas Hammas has hidden it's money (or spent it on these tunnels), if Hammas had spent on defence their people wouldn't be killed so efficiently by Israel and the body count would be more equal.

 

We really need some arab refugees on here to give their bull equal exposure to ridicule.

 

Both sides have some how let murderers and gangsters be their advisors, spokesmen and leaders.

[MakemineVanilla]

Why won't Israel comply with UN resolution 242, which was unanimously voted for, and hand back all their 1967 territorial gains?

[Glarmorgan]

Why won't Israel comply with UN resolution 242, which was unanimously voted for, and hand back all their 1967 territorial gains?

 

Resolution 242 was originally accepted by Israel, but at current times it brings up a some problems:

 

1. The call for a withdrawal of all occupied territory brings the question - who will get the territories back. Gaza strip was under Egyptian control while Judea and Samaria were under Jordanian. Both countries has no desire to regain control over these territories (King Hussain, 1988). So - who should get these territories? Fatah? Hammas? ISIS?

 

2. The vague call for a "just solution for the refugee issue" - This is to vague and moreover - it encouraged the Palestinians to call for the Right of Return. In other words - a Jewish-free Palestinian state alongside a Jewish state that will have accept refugees according to a new definition made by the UN especially for the Palestinians (as far as I know, only the Palestinians "enjoy" a unique refugee status which goes by heritage - if you're a refugee, your son is also a refugee and also his grandson, even if they weren't alive in 1948). Israel, under any circumstances, cannot accept the right of return. The Palestinian state should be the home of all Palestinian refugees.

 

3. Jerusalem - according to some participants, Jerusalem was dropped from 242 resolution on purpose, acknowledging Israel claims for total control over the whole city. The Palestinians refuse to accept this.

[Glarmorgan]

Are these arguments distributed and rehearsed? Or are they just absorbed by exposure to one sided propaganda? 

 

Glar, you are the third person I've heard or read in two days that has used this argument of Hammas could invest in hotels and attract tourism but instead they spent it digging tunnels. To the point that the wording is suspiciously similar. Was it some recent speech or article that people have been asked to distribute?

 

To be fair, it's something I've often wondered about refugees all over the world. Why don't they stop moaning and get the tourists in.

 

To be fair, it's brilliantly funny in the best tradition of the blackest humour.

 

Another variation I've heard, Israel has invested their money in defence whereas Hammas has hidden it's money (or spent it on these tunnels), if Hammas had spent on defence their people wouldn't be killed so efficiently by Israel and the body count would be more equal.

 

We really need some arab refugees on here to give their bull equal exposure to ridicule.

 

Both sides have some how let murderers and gangsters be their advisors, spokesmen and leaders.

 

If I am the 3rd person maybe you should conclude that I am bringing up some sort of a common sense, shared by most Israelis here...? 

 

Not many Israelis have sympathy or even understand what the hell Hammas is doing. You know, I am running to safe rooms at least twice a day due to the rocket launches from Gaza. Southern cities have this 10 times a day, so you know - while I sit with my wife and 3 kids, waiting for the sirens to go off, I try to figure out things. Try to understand why the hell Hammas is doing this - so all I wrote come up - Israel withdrew its forces, no settlements, IDF is a lot stronger, the Iron Dome prevents most of the missiles to hit their targets. All in all - Hammas has nothing to gain but deaths and destruction of Gaza - why the hell are they doing it!? sheer hate? a greater goal? 

Let's play pretend - what else do you think Israel needs to do in order to bring Hammas to stop seeing it as an entity which should be cleansed? 

Edited July 13, 2014 by Glarmorgan

[Glarmorgan]

BTW to all - I do apologize for any English mistakes I make. As you can probably figure out - this is not my first language.

[snowychap]

And a couple of days ago there were none. A couple of months back - zero. 12 months ago - again - none.

But last night there *were some, right?

*edited in

Edited July 13, 2014 by snowychap

[Glarmorgan]

 

And a couple of days ago there were none. A couple of months back - zero. 12 months ago - again - none.

But last night there some, right?

 

 

Last night was 4 days after the fighting began. Last night also included dozens of rockets launched at Israeli cities, including some from Lebanon (strange. I didn't remember we occupied Lebanon as well).

So, if reports are true, and the soldiers were on their way to try and cope with the launchers - seems perfectly alright to me.

[Glarmorgan]

 

Mahmoud Abbas, the sometimes moderate, often ineffectual leader of the Palestinian Authority, just asked his rivals in Hamas a question that other bewildered people are also asking: “What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?”

The Gaza-based Hamas has recently fired more than 500 rockets at Israeli towns and cities. This has terrorized the citizenry, though caused few casualties, in large part because Israel is protected by the Iron Dome anti-rocket system.

In reaction to these indiscriminately fired missiles, Israel has bombarded targets across Gaza, killing roughly 100 people so far. Compared with violent death rates in other parts of the Middle East, the number is small. (More than 170,000 people have been killed in the Syrian civil war to date.) But it is large enough to suggest an answer to Abbas’s question: Hamas is trying to get Israel to kill as many Palestinians as possible.

 

 

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-07-11/is-hamas-trying-to-get-gazans-killed

[bickster]

Just curious really Glarmorgan, how much do you get paid for this hasbara?