Houllier: Back him or sack him?

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

As long as GH realises that he has made mistakes and continues to improve the team in the right way then that is fine by me.

Have you not noticed that throughout his career nothing has ever been GH's fault. It's one of his defining personality traits.

Pretty sure he admits to poor buying at end of Liverpool reign.

Regretting Ireland comments.

Bringing in Cuellar (possibly too late but still making the changes)

bringing in Dunne when it looked like he wouldn't come back.

Maybe he doesn't believe things are his fault, I don't know but it seems to me if he has done something that's not right, it's usually changed.

[omariqy]

Havent really followed his career to be honest or his interviews. I am sceptical of his ability to do well for us but will adopt a wait and see attitude.

[AshVilla]

As long as GH realises that he has made mistakes and continues to improve the team in the right way then that is fine by me.

Have you not noticed that throughout his career nothing has ever been GH's fault. It's one of his defining personality traits.

The bloke does have a blame culture about him

If he doesnt win its usually the players fault and not his fault for picking the correct side or getting things right tactically. Same can be said about what goes on at the training ground and off the pitch football has changed since he last managed, Player Power is in force and i think it was naive of him to think he could come back into football and expect all these modern day footballers to immediately fall in line with his methods without a period of adjustment. Lets face it his brand of football and MON's are poles apart he shouldnt have expected it to happen overnight and upset the applecart in the process it should be done gradually. If your players are not playing for you and are unconvinced of your ability as a football manager the writing is already on the wall and its only a matter of time.

[sellyoakvilla]

As long as GH realises that he has made mistakes and continues to improve the team in the right way then that is fine by me.

Have you not noticed that throughout his career nothing has ever been GH's fault. It's one of his defining personality traits.

The bloke does have a blame culture about him

If he doesnt win its usually the players fault and not his fault for picking the correct side or getting things right tactically. Same can be said about what goes on at the training ground and off the pitch football has changed since he last managed, Player Power is in force and i think it was naive of him to think he could come back into football and expect all these modern day footballers to immediately fall in line with his methods without a period of adjustment. Lets face it his brand of football and MON's are poles apart he shouldnt have expected it to happen overnight and upset the applecart in the process it should be done gradually. If your players are not playing for you and are unconvinced of your ability as a football manager the writing is already on the wall and its only a matter of time.

Agreed with that in relevance to Villa up until the line bolded, he's been here four months, give the bloke a chance. He's in his first transfer window, which is January may I add, where huge deals generally don't happen unless you spend big money, which we aren't going to do...

Unless we are bottom of the table chasing 6 points, infact I don't even think he will go then, unless we get relegated, then Houllier is looking like being here over Summer and into next season at least, so get used to it.

[AshVilla]

As long as GH realises that he has made mistakes and continues to improve the team in the right way then that is fine by me.

Have you not noticed that throughout his career nothing has ever been GH's fault. It's one of his defining personality traits.

The bloke does have a blame culture about him

If he doesnt win its usually the players fault and not his fault for picking the correct side or getting things right tactically. Same can be said about what goes on at the training ground and off the pitch football has changed since he last managed, Player Power is in force and i think it was naive of him to think he could come back into football and expect all these modern day footballers to immediately fall in line with his methods without a period of adjustment. Lets face it his brand of football and MON's are poles apart he shouldnt have expected it to happen overnight and upset the applecart in the process it should be done gradually. If your players are not playing for you and are unconvinced of your ability as a football manager the writing is already on the wall and its only a matter of time.

Agreed with that in relevance to Villa up until the line bolded, he's been here four months, give the bloke a chance. He's in his first transfer window, which is January may I add, where huge deals generally don't happen unless you spend big money, which we aren't going to do...

Unless we are bottom of the table chasing 6 points, infact I don't even think he will go then, unless we get relegated, then Houllier is looking like being here over Summer and into next season at least, so get used to it.

Im willing to give him time but are the players judged on the performance against chelsea we may have turned the corner and he may have got a good core of players on his side with a few exceptions still such as ireland and warnock only time will tell.

[PieFacE]

I've said it before and i will say it again. No way should he sacked if we lose tonight. Sunderland are a good team. We have no divine right to beat them no matter who's in charge.

Tonight is about the performance, if the team plays in the same way we did at Chelsea and still lose... then he's very safe.

If we go back to looking like a shambles then I wouldn't argue if he did get sacked.

What if we play like a shambles but get 3 points?

Safe or gone?

haha... good question... suppose safe if we get 3 points....

[sellyoakvilla]

He won't get sacked unless he no longer feels committed to the job

[TrentVilla]

Unless we are bottom of the table chasing 6 points, infact I don't even think he will go then, unless we get relegated, then Houllier is looking like being here over Summer and into next season at least, so get used to it.

You are more than likely right. It doesn't mean that people have to like it or want him though and they are entitled to both hold and express their opinion otherwise if they so wish. That is the point of the site.

As for your earlier question, why people are looking down rather than up. Its rather simple and has nothing to do with the fact we are Villa fans, fans of all teams look at momentum and results and look up or down accordingly.

At the moment we are in a terrible run of results the Chelsea point aside and have been moving down the table so people are automatically looking below us rather than above.

In addition the dangers that lie below us are far greater than the benefits of being 2,3,4 or 5 places up the table from our current position thus its understandable that people are talking of the bigger of the two.

For the last 4 years pretty much everyone on here has been focussed on the teams above us, looking below is a recent and most unwelcome change but one I'm sure that would be reversed if we could actually win a game or two.

[PieFacE]

Yeah i'm with Sellyoak... talks a lot of sense IMO. Pretty much echos my views with each reply.

[sellyoakvilla]

Unless we are bottom of the table chasing 6 points, infact I don't even think he will go then, unless we get relegated, then Houllier is looking like being here over Summer and into next season at least, so get used to it.

You are more than likely right. It doesn't mean that people have to like it or want him though and they are entitled to both hold and express their opinion otherwise if they so wish. That is the point of the site.

As for your earlier question, why people are looking down rather than up. Its rather simple and has nothing to do with the fact we are Villa fans, fans of all teams look at momentum and results and look up or down accordingly.

At the moment we are in a terrible run of results the Chelsea point aside and have been moving down the table so people are automatically looking below us rather than above.

In addition the dangers that lie below us are far greater than the benefits of being 2,3,4 or 5 places up the table from our current position thus its understandable that people are talking of the bigger of the two.

For the last 4 years pretty much everyone on here has been focussed on the teams above us, looking below is a recent and most unwelcome change but one I'm sure that would be reversed if we could actually win a game or two.

In the short term, sacking Houllier would do nothing for the club. Yes fans don't like him but that's why we don't run the football club. Short term we need to get out of this mess and in the Summer we can reassess and see whether he is the right man for the job, but for the time being, we need to keep him in the job.

[Woodytom]

Unless we are bottom of the table chasing 6 points, infact I don't even think he will go then, unless we get relegated, then Houllier is looking like being here over Summer and into next season at least, so get used to it.

You are more than likely right. It doesn't mean that people have to like it or want him though and they are entitled to both hold and express their opinion otherwise if they so wish. That is the point of the site.

As for your earlier question, why people are looking down rather than up. Its rather simple and has nothing to do with the fact we are Villa fans, fans of all teams look at momentum and results and look up or down accordingly.

At the moment we are in a terrible run of results the Chelsea point aside and have been moving down the table so people are automatically looking below us rather than above.

In addition the dangers that lie below us are far greater than the benefits of being 2,3,4 or 5 places up the table from our current position thus its understandable that people are talking of the bigger of the two.

For the last 4 years pretty much everyone on here has been focussed on the teams above us, looking below is a recent and most unwelcome change but one I'm sure that would be reversed if we could actually win a game or two.

Think its worth mentioning as well trent, that as a villa fan, i cant remember ever string 5 or 6 wins together, which is what we need to get back up there atm. We maybe only 6 or 7 points off 9th/8th etc but there are 8 other teams between us. Theyre not all going to lose each week, just as were not going to win each week.

Barring 3 or 4 teams making considerable movement (hopefully we are 1), the table wont look much different come May imo

[TrentVilla]

In the short term, sacking Houllier would do nothing for the club.

Well that remains to be seen, ultimately that depends on what happens resutls wise between now and the end of the season.

If he took us down, highly unlikely but possible then sacking him and bringing in someone more capable of getting results with this group of players would obviously be of short term benefit.

The obvious name in that catagory is Fat Sam however for many that isn't very palletable myself included.

Yes fans don't like him but that's why we don't run the football club. Short term we need to get out of this mess and in the Summer we can reassess and see whether he is the right man for the job, but for the time being, we need to keep him in the job.

Your first point is a fair one your second is more open to debate and the outcome of forthcoming games.

Another new manager wouldn't be good but neither will our prospects be if recent form is extended much longer.

If that is the case it will inevitably I feel become a case of the lesser of two evils.

[Richard]

Whoever came in this season, I always felt was going to do worse, It's how much worse he does which will be the defining factor in whether he's here next season in my opinion.

Well having this 'success' under MON has meant whatever manager came in next would be subject to intense pressure and anything below what we achieved under the aforementioned would just not be acceptable to some fans.

Why should it be?

[sellyoakvilla]

Whoever came in this season, I always felt was going to do worse, It's how much worse he does which will be the defining factor in whether he's here next season in my opinion.

Well having this 'success' under MON has meant whatever manager came in next would be subject to intense pressure and anything below what we achieved under the aforementioned would just not be acceptable to some fans.

Why should it be?

I am not saying it should be, I'm simply saying anything below 6th and cup runs, even if we finished 8th it would be deemed not good enough

[sellyoakvilla]

In the short term, sacking Houllier would do nothing for the club.

Well that remains to be seen, ultimately that depends on what happens resutls wise between now and the end of the season.

If he took us down, highly unlikely but possible then sacking him and bringing in someone more capable of getting results with this group of players would obviously be of short term benefit.

The obvious name in that catagory is Fat Sam however for many that isn't very palletable myself included.

Yes fans don't like him but that's why we don't run the football club. Short term we need to get out of this mess and in the Summer we can reassess and see whether he is the right man for the job, but for the time being, we need to keep him in the job.

Your first point is a fair one your second is more open to debate and the outcome of forthcoming games.

Another new manager wouldn't be good but neither will our prospects be if recent form is extended much longer.

If that is the case it will inevitably I feel become a case of the lesser of two evils.

That is fair enough, only our next few games can see that, and determine whether Chelsea was another blip like Man Utd at home or a turning point in our season, I believe it may be the latter but obviously anything can happen in football.

Tonight's potential three points are the most important of our season so far.

[TrentVilla]

Whoever came in this season, I always felt was going to do worse, It's how much worse he does which will be the defining factor in whether he's here next season in my opinion.

Well having this 'success' under MON has meant whatever manager came in next would be subject to intense pressure and anything below what we achieved under the aforementioned would just not be acceptable to some fans.

Why should it be?

I am not saying it should be, I'm simply saying anything below 6th and cup runs, even if we finished 8th it would be deemed not good enough

I don't agree actually, I think the vast majority would have accepted a little going backwards to go forwards. What they've not been willing to accept is how far (at this moment in time) we appear to have gone back and how quickly.

[sellyoakvilla]

Whoever came in this season, I always felt was going to do worse, It's how much worse he does which will be the defining factor in whether he's here next season in my opinion.

Well having this 'success' under MON has meant whatever manager came in next would be subject to intense pressure and anything below what we achieved under the aforementioned would just not be acceptable to some fans.

Why should it be?

I am not saying it should be, I'm simply saying anything below 6th and cup runs, even if we finished 8th it would be deemed not good enough

I don't agree actually, I think the vast majority would have accepted a little going backwards to go forwards. What they've not been willing to accept is how far (at this moment in time) we appear to have gone back and how quickly.

Well perspective is important in these kind of situations, it's far too easy to just sit back and look at results and league position without looking into the causes of that, the players who have not performed and the underlying reasons as to why they have not - for what it's worth I don't believe Houllier was the right appointment short term, we should have stuck with Kev Mac... Houllier would have been a better appointment had we been in a better position... but then of course some people would say what kind of a manager is he if we have to be in an existing good position for him to do well?

It's a difficult situation to be in as it's obvious something is not right at the club but without perspective I don't think some fans would have accepted a short time going backwards, as we all know Villa fans are impatient and some are, shall we say, fairweather.

Maybe my point came across wrong but I was just trying to say that due to our relative success under MON, anything less than that would be difficult to warm to for the majority of fans. MON was a great manager, and we've got some great memories under his leadership, but he's gone now and we need to move on and try and get out of this mess he left us in.

[TrentVilla]

That is fair enough, only our next few games can see that, and determine whether Chelsea was another blip like Man Utd at home or a turning point in our season, I believe it may be the latter but obviously anything can happen in football.

Tonight's potential three points are the most important of our season so far.

I agree with you there. Prior to the Chelsea game I was 100% in the Houllier out camp. The performance at Chelsea more than the rest has temporarily reduced that to perhaps 90% because it had fight and I didn't think Houllier would get that from the team.

Now if that proves to be a one off and we go back to what we saw before tonight then I doubt I will give him the benefit of even 10% doubt again. Build upon what we saw at Chelsea and we will see.

I would love to be wrong about Houllier, I do not want to see us do badly in order to be right but at this moment in time despite the Chelsea game I have little faith in Houllier or hope for his time in charge here.

You are certainly right though, tonight might just be the most important 90 minutes of our season and Houllier's career at the club.

[TrentVilla]

Well perspective is important in these kind of situations, it's far too easy to just sit back and look at results and league position without looking into the causes of that, the players who have not performed and the underlying reasons as to why they have not

Your point about perspective is fair. It isn't though just results, its his conduct, his words, his behaviour on the touch line other than at Chelsea interestingly, its his signing of Pires, his falling out with players and his refusal to take any blame for results personally.

Above all though it is the manner of some of the defeats rather than the defeats themselves that cause the biggest question marks. If we had seen the spirt displayed at Chelsea in previous games but we just weren't getting results I think he would be getting a far easier ride on here.

It's a difficult situation to be in as it's obvious something is not right at the club but without perspective I don't think some fans would have accepted a short time going backwards, as we all know Villa fans are impatient and some are, shall we say, fairweather.

I honestly think if he had us sitting say 8th - 10th and was working at changing things in the short term the majority would have accepted that this season.

Maybe my point came across wrong but I was just trying to say that due to our relative success under MON, anything less than that would be difficult to warm to for the majority of fans. MON was a great manager, and we've got some great memories under his leadership, but he's gone now and we need to move on and try and get out of this mess he left us in.

I don't diagree with that really only I'd add that Houllier has in his short time here made quite a mess for himself in addition to what he inherited.

[sellyoakvilla]

Well perspective is important in these kind of situations, it's far too easy to just sit back and look at results and league position without looking into the causes of that, the players who have not performed and the underlying reasons as to why they have not

Your point about perspective is fair. It isn't though just results, its his conduct, his words, his behaviour on the touch line other than at Chelsea interestingly, its his signing of Pires, his falling out with players and his refusal to take any blame for results personally.

Above all though it is the manner of some of the defeats rather than the defeats themselves that cause the biggest question marks. If we had seen the spirt displayed at Chelsea in previous games but we just weren't getting results I think he would be getting a far easier ride on here.

It's a difficult situation to be in as it's obvious something is not right at the club but without perspective I don't think some fans would have accepted a short time going backwards, as we all know Villa fans are impatient and some are, shall we say, fairweather.

I honestly think if he had us sitting say 8th - 10th and was working at changing things in the short term the majority would have accepted that this season.

Maybe my point came across wrong but I was just trying to say that due to our relative success under MON, anything less than that would be difficult to warm to for the majority of fans. MON was a great manager, and we've got some great memories under his leadership, but he's gone now and we need to move on and try and get out of this mess he left us in.

I don't diagree with that really only I'd add that Houllier has in his short time here made quite a mess for himself in addition to what he inherited.

I agree that Houllier has been wrong on several occasions, i.e. talking out to the media about Ireland and dropping him completely. Also agree that he has dealt with other situations wrongly and should think about his actions i.e. Liverpool away.

If we were sitting 8th-10th now, every Villa fan would take it over where we are now, no doubt about that. But it's very easy to say "If we were 8th-10th then the majority of fans would be content" when we are sitting in this situation now. If we were sitting in 10th without having to go through all of this I don't think many fans would be happy still, but then of course we can't really judge that as like I say everyone here would be happy with 10th in comparison... if there was no comparison it wouldn't be a lot different and the Houllier Out brigade would still be active IMO. And then of course there's also the fans who hated Houllier and loved MON from the start who will do anything to get their point across at every single opportunity given.

He's inherited, in truth, a mess. The squad are deflated from last season and Man City's emergence has ruined them. It's nowhere near the level of the squad last season and as I said in a previous thread, some people underestimate the value Milner was to our squad, not just in £. He held us together at times both with his attacking and defensive work every single game, I rarely remember a game when he went missing. With Barry it was not so difficult as we easily replaced him by moving Milner to the middle, but with Milner a huge gap needs to be filled, hopefully by the signing of Makoun which is supposedly imminent.

I'm glad Houllier has finally realised his mistakes, brought Dunne back into the side and reverted to a similar style we used to play under MON, as short term we need to sort this out and for that I applaud him. But as long as we keep it up I have no problems with his management style IF we stay up, as we can reassess in Summer. This season we must simply not get relegated. In hindsight, if we stay up, I'll be content... anything above that and it will have been a decent turnaround. But not a decent season. It's difficult to judge, because I was quietly confident about Houllier before he arrived. I just believe he needs time to prove himself should he turn this around and should we stay up.