economic situation is dire

[peterms]

Clegg made a statement basically saying that he agreed with Cameron. Does he still represent the Lib dems anymore?

Do you actually have a clue.

" Clegg made a statement basically saying he agreed with Scameron"

Where did you get this ine from the Daily Fail...?

I quoted this on the last page:

Clegg, in a carefully worded statement, said: "The demands Britain made for safeguards, on which the coalition government was united, were modest and reasonable. They were safeguards for the single market, not just the UK. There were no demands of repatriation of powers from the EU to Britain and no demands for a unilateral carve-out of UK financial services."

From the Guardian. It is presented as an attributable quote by him, not a general view from "sources close to...".

[LondonLax]

Clegg made a statement basically saying that he agreed with Cameron. Does he still represent the Lib dems anymore?

Do you actually have a clue.

I think you needed a question mark at the end of your needless insult.

When I posted that comment Clegg had said what peterms has reproduced above. That appears to be an agreement with the Tory statement.

It seems today the Guardian has found a "source" that claims he is now outraged. It does not seem very congruent anyway.

[VILLAFC2000]

Clegg made a statement basically saying that he agreed with Cameron. Does he still represent the Lib dems anymore?

Do you actually have a clue.

I think you needed a question mark at the end of your needless insult.

When I posted that comment Clegg had said what peterms has reproduced above. That appears to be an agreement with the Tory statement.

It seems today the Guardian has found a "source" that claims he is now outraged. It does not seem very congruent anyway.

It really inst quantum physics.

The Liberal Democrats are the most pro European party there is in the UK. There is no way Clegg would be happy with this its an outrageous lie.

The only people who would even suggest that Clegg agreed to this long ago would be a Torie.

[snowychap]

The Liberal Democrats are the most pro European party there is in the UK. There is no way Clegg would be happy with this its an outrageous lie.

The only people who would even suggest that Clegg agreed to this long ago would be a Torie.

I'm sorry but I think that's nonsense especially with regard to the position in which the Lib Dems find themselves as coalition 'partners'.

The trouble with them turning every which way is that, sooner or later, they forget which way they are pointing and, possibly, where they actually stand.

The trouble with them being willing (or desperate) to compromise on everything is that they end up lying to everyone (including themselves).

[LondonLax]

Edit: Sorry, messed up the editing on the phone...

[Ads]

Clegg could bring down this Coalition at any stage.

And that would get him where?

The ballot box and electoral oblivion for his party.

[JulieB]

Inside Job. Still on Iplayer, but not for much longer.

Highly recommended. On iPlayer till Wednesday. It's on You Tube as well IIRC

Makes the blood boil seeing how fraudsters like Greenspan, who took a £40K bribe to write a fictitious glowing reference to SEC investigation, for an investment banker who was later jailed for defrauding investors out of billions of dollars. Later "promoted" by Clinton Greenspan became one of the key players who manipulated politicians and the system to deregulate the banking sector and allowed "derivative" trading to be made legal.

Along with Henry Poulson & Co they deliberately undid from 2001 onwards, some of the tightest regulations to be found anywhere in the world which had been put in as a safety net after the 1930s Wall Street Crash and the ensuing depression.

Let loose of these restraints Wall Street and in particular a bunch of highly paid, psychotic, "A type" personalities at Goldman Sachs very much plotted the collapse of Lehman Bros and stood to gain billions from their demise. Deliberately concentrating sales of toxic CDOs (bundled loans) that they described to each other as "s**t" internally, to their very own clients, who they had a duty of care towards, while at the same time betting billions by reinsuring them knowing these same recommended investments would fail! When indeed these assets did fail, their clients lost billions whilst their advisers made billions. Unbeleivable, immoral behaviour.

Bernie Madoff was jailed for running a multi billion dollar ponzi scheme yet Goldman Sachs now rules the world!

[blandy]

Except in our case it suck money and talent from other countries around the world and brings it in to the UK to be spent here in both tax revenues and goods and services.

It is a massive advantage the UK has and Merkel and Sarkozy have coveted the UK financial industry for a long time ..

What we should be doing is finding ways to contain, control, and break up the finance industry into far smaller, accountable and properly regulated parts where risk is fenced off.

Looking at the tax revenue (far less than it should be) and being grateful for that is rather like having your home infested with vampire bats and thinking how lucky you are that you can use the guano for the garden.

Cameron was in a hopeless position, completely, and partly self inflicted.

What was proposed in various guises was:

a) not a solution to the financial problems.

not democratic - removing decision making from democratic process.

c) Likely to cause him problems at home with his right wing get out of Europe fantasists.

d) Whatever he did, he'd have ended up losing. He hasn't protected the UK finance "industry" - it is doomed to shift off to the continent anyway as France and Germany have wanted. The UK now has less influence than ever, and less appeal to other trading nations as a handy stepping stone at the gateway to the continent. Britain will, rightly or wrongly get the blame - we are a handy scapegoat, and the tories have been as Sarkozy said - like attending a wife swapping party, without bringing a wife.

[drat01]

I see the Tory propaganda machine is telling lies a plenty again, suggesting the whole Veto thing was based on the ability to veto the financial transaction tax, when the reality is that was a separate thing and was subject to negotiate anyway.

It seems that in the media the only really supporters of all of this, and have been printing quite sinister soundbites, have been the Mail, Express and the Sun. The fact that those 3 are doing that is easily sufficient ammunition to question the motives and as importantly the outcomes.

Clegg has to now take the Lib Dems out of this abortion of a Gvmt. From what I heard today from people in his local party there will be serious challenges to him and the direction of the party if he does not. This has all the makings of another GE coming soon. No doubt Ashcroft is getting his cheque book ready in the far shores of "non-tax" land

[tonyh29]

Interesting that Sarkozy didn't put his wife on the table either though..

Sarkozy got exactly what he wanted , someone to point the finger at (c

In Cameron)during his election year when it all goes tits up

[drat01]

No it was meant as a broader definition of what Drat labels 'little Englanders', by which he means a closet nazi, itching to rebuild the gas chambers.

What a complete and utter load of bollox from AWOL. Where have I said a closet Nazi, or are you making things up again? Quite scandalous statement in reality from you. I am surprised that the mods have allowed you to get away with that

[markavfc40]

Clegg could bring down this Coalition at any stage.

And that would get him where?

The ballot box and electoral oblivion for his party.

Thats nailed on anyway. Waiting till 2015 is just delaying the inevitable.

They could perhaps walk away with a little pride by walking away now and not bending over and taking any more shaftings from the tories.

What is now blatantly clear is that the reasons they gave for selling out - coming together with the tories for the good of the country and to tackle the deficit - are failing. They now find that having gone back on numerous promises and against their principles it has been a waste of time as the deficit is not being tackled and will likely be 100billion come 2015. In fact that perhaps looks optimistic.

Being in a coalition with the tories has been a disaster for the Lib Dems and one that will take years for them to recover from.

[drat01]

A good article about the concerns shown by industrialists to Cameron's pandering to his right wing euro sceptics at the expense of the UK in general. What is particularly interesting is the comments from the CBI

Big business deeply troubled by Cameron's veto

When Vince Cable travels the world selling the attractions of the UK as a place where huge companies and deep-pocketed investors should put their money, pretty much the first thing Britain's business secretary points out is that the UK is part of the biggest market in the world - the European Union's single market - and (he says) offers a more welcoming climate for business than much of the rest of the EU

Which is why both Mr Cable and many business leaders are profoundly uneasy about David Cameron's refusal in the early hours of Friday morning to allow the eurozone's governments to adapt the EU's treaties such that they will incorporate reforms seen as necessary to save the euro.

To be clear, Mr Cable is not about to resign (all rumours to the contrary). He's unhappy, but keen to do what he can to rectify what he fears may be a serious economic error by the prime minister - given how vital it is to stimulate investment in productive capacity in Britain, so that we become a nation that starts to pay its way in the world, rather than living on borrowed money.

Removal

As for our biggest companies, well the bosses of three of them (none of whom would be seen as pro-European zealots) have all said to me that they are unhappy about the prime minister removing himself from the negotiating table not only on the future of the eurozone but also - potentially - on other issues of huge importance to the UK.

Here is what one said to me: "Margaret Thatcher was a constant thorn in the side of European leaders, but she never vacated the negotiating table; I am anxious by the implications of what the prime minister has done."

Also, John Cridland, the director general of the CBI, concedes to me that his members are worried. He says the prime minister needs to spell out in detail - in his Commons statement tomorrow - why he couldn't sign up for the proposed treaty reforms, or what (if anything) the French president and German chancellor did to make that impossible.

Because, as Mr Cridland says, it is not obvious that Mr Cameron made it easier to protect the interests of the City of London - which is what the prime minister said he was trying to do - by forcing the eurozone's members to design new institutional arrangements to manage their affairs.

Erosion

In fact, as all the business leaders to whom I spoke were quick to point out, the decision by the 17 eurozone nations - plus as many as nine other EU states - to opt for an intergovernmental agreement that excludes the UK raises the prospect of this group becoming (explicitly or implicitly) the decision-making body for all EU economic and business issues, especially those relating to the single market.

So, as the influential head of a major multinational said to me, if you are a Chinese or Indian multinational, and you have a choice between investing in Germany, the Netherlands or the UK, and you fear that the UK's influence in the single market has been eroded - and you also see some of the right wing of the governing Tory party seemingly in favour of the UK leaving the EU altogether - you probably won't put your incremental investment in the UK.

Over the past 25 years, inward investment has become more and more important to the UK. And the UK is relatively more dependent on big multinationals - in finance, pharmaceuticals, media and so on - than almost all rival economies.

'No, nay, never'

Now the thing about multinationals is that they are citizens of the world, rather than any particular country. They can base their respective HQs and invest their cash where the climate is most propitious. And if they begin to see the UK as an isolated island, they will not wish to stay.

So it would really matter if the UK's place in the world's biggest market, the European single market, were somehow in doubt. Which is why having done his "no, nay, never" in the early hours of Friday morning, businesses are now desperate to hear a positive statement from Mr Cameron about how the UK's position in the single market can somehow be buttressed.

All that said, everything I've just written could turn out to be wholly irrelevant - not even as useful as tomorrow's wrapping for fish and chips. Because if the eurozone were to melt down, and that remains a very real and present danger (as I pointed out on Friday), the priority then will be to limit the inevitable havoc for the economy (including ours) and build a whole new European entente.

link

One of the fundamental things that always seem to escape the thinking of the Euroscpetics in all the parties that are anti-Europe is the fact that most of the large revenue earners for the UK are multi nationals who do not pander to the inward looking that is common trait of supporters of these ideas.

[VILLAFC2000]

Clegg could bring down this Coalition at any stage.

And that would get him where?

The ballot box and electoral oblivion for his party.

You have to look at the big picture.

Do you think the the lib dem voters are happy propping up a Torie government in this coalition?

The point is with his lies, deceitfulness and ego Clegg has completely taken advantage of his power. The Majority of Lib Dems voters are not particualalrly pleased with him.

So if this Coalition comes to an abrupt end that will mean the end of Clegg - which a lot of voters are already counting on.

Some say that this is what the Tories want to happen as they can then call another GE. They will hope to pinch a lot of the UKIP voters and get in with a majority.

[VILLAFC2000]

Clegg could bring down this Coalition at any stage.

And that would get him where?

The ballot box and electoral oblivion for his party.

Thats nailed on anyway. Waiting till 2015 is just delaying the inevitable.

They could perhaps walk away with a little pride by walking away now and not bending over and taking any more shaftings from the tories.

What is now blatantly clear is that the reasons they gave for selling out - coming together with the tories for the good of the country and to tackle the deficit - are failing. They now find that having gone back on numerous promises and against their principles it has been a waste of time as the deficit is not being tackled and will likely be 100billion come 2015. In fact that perhaps looks optimistic.

Being in a coalition with the tories has been a disaster for the Lib Dems and one that will take years for them to recover from.

They should have gone in with Labour.

What was there not to agree on compared with the Tories.I have never forgiven clegg for this and nor have a lot of his voters. He made a pact with Scameron long before the GE for his own self greed, power and ego.

He is slowly finding out the consequences of his actions.

[drat01]

They should have gone in with Labour.

What was there not to agree on compared with the Tories.I have never forgiven clegg for this and nor have a lot of his voters. He made a pact with Scameron long before the GE for his own self greed, power and ego.

He is slowly finding out the consequences of his actions.

TBF, and as a Labour voter from the last election, that was probably not the best idea. The fact was, and this is off topic, the ConDem gvmt has NO mandate as that was never anything that people voted for. The split as it stood was that the country voted for a minority Tory Gvmt and that is exactly what should have tried to run the country. We would have actually probably seen a lot less far right radical return to the extremes of Thatcherism as common sense would have prevented that in parliament. What we have now, and we have seen with this awful decision by Cameron, is the LibDem's effectively giving the Tory party, and especially the far right of it and those who back it, a total free shot at implementing anything they want. That is the scandal that Clegg has brought upon the UK, and why so many of his own party are disgusted with him

[tonyh29]

As we seem to have moved ot

It's well documented that many lib dems wanted to go in with labour

It's also well documented that balls an co knew they had **** the country right over and didn't want to be in government but sniping from the sidelines

[drat01]

As we seem to have moved ot

It's well documented that many lib dems wanted to go in with labour

It's also well documented that balls an co knew they had **** the country right over and didn't want to be in government but sniping from the sidelines

:-) Tony - I notice how you were always happy when the Tory party were in opposition to say that the job of opposition was to oppose. The H word again?

Many Lib Dems did not want to go with Labour, nor did they want to go with the Tory party. The country did not want a Lib Dem / Tory merged Gvmt that was interpreted by Cameron as a green light to impose radical right wing schemes. As said no party had a big enough majority and we were left with this frankly awful Gvmt that has been nothing more than a mouthpiece for the Tory right and its backers, backed up by the blundering and inept Clegg and Alexander.

What's happening now is Cameron is trying every tactic he can to try and win favour with the electorate, we see that with the lies and spin they try and put on what he has done, while behind the scenes he is pandering to his backers. That is neither good for the country in general nor is it good for the LibDems.

[peterms]

Cameron was in a hopeless position, completely, and partly self inflicted.

What was proposed in various guises was:

a) not a solution to the financial problems.

Yes, the whole thing was utterly strange.

What Merkel etc were proposing has little relation to the problems they are facing. And what Cameron was proposing had no relation to the subjects under discussion.

It's as though none of the interpreters were there, and they were all talking at cross purposes in their different languages.

They end up either playing to domestic audiences or playing power games about their own positioning, leaving the problems they were supposed to be tackling, unaddressed.

[VILLAFC2000]

As we seem to have moved ot

It's well documented that many lib dems wanted to go in with labour

It's also well documented that balls an co knew they had **** the country right over and didn't want to be in government but sniping from the sidelines

Credible source Calvin...?