BOF Posted March 27 Author Moderator Share Posted March 27 19 hours ago, Genie said: Daniel Ricciardo did alright. Gasly, Albon and Perez are all poor to average. Red Bull should put a proper tier 1 driver in the second car. They’d still win every race as a team but at least there would be some excitement at the front of the leaderboard. This gets disingenuously trotted out once a year at least. Ricciardo's peak versus a teenager who had the measure of him long before Danny buggered off. It'd be interesting to see the 'when' for those points, podiums and wins. I'd wager the crossing point of one line going up and the other going down cross each other fairly quickly during their time together. Danny knew which way the wind was blowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, BOF said: This gets disingenuously trotted out once a year at least. Ricciardo's peak versus a teenager who had the measure of him long before Danny buggered off. It'd be interesting to see the 'when' for those points, podiums and wins. I'd wager the crossing point of one line going up and the other going down cross each other fairly quickly during their time together. Danny knew which way the wind was blowing. Nothing disingenuous about it. The points was “everybody has struggled in the second seat” which isn’t the case. It then triggers the caveat police suggesting it doesn’t count for reasons. Max is undoubtedly a top tier driver. He also has been blessed with by far the best car on the grid and since Danny Ric several poor-to-average in the other car. As a driver, he’s living the dream right now. It’s the perfect scenario. Red Bull should put a proper driver in that other car and then we can all enjoy the toy throwing and the tantrums which would inevitably occur when he’s no longer in a 1 horse race. Edited March 27 by Genie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 27 Author Moderator Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Genie said: Nothing disingenuous about it. The points was “everybody has struggled in the second seat” which isn’t the case. It then triggers the caveat police suggesting it doesn’t count for reasons. Max is undoubtedly a top tier driver. He also has been blessed with by far the best car on the grid and since Danny Ric several poor-to-average in the other car. As a driver, he’s living the dream right now. It’s the perfect scenario. Red Bull should put a proper driver in that other car and then we can all enjoy the toy throwing and the tantrums which would inevitably occur when he’s no longer in a 1 horse race. I don't think a 'proper' driver would do much more than Perez already is tbh (I believe Perez is a proper driver). As we have seen with Perez, Max haters aren't long in deciding that actually driver X is no longer proper when the results aren't bearing out their presumptions. Perez was fairly proper before joining Red Bull IIRC. I'd like to see them put a top tier driver in the other seat (something over and above a proper driver). But there are reasons against that too, and they're not just 'Max wouldn't want it'. Obviously I think Max probably wouldn't want it in an ideal scenario, but I'm sure he'd live with it. While Max would inevitably still win the intra-team battle, the other driver would get a larger share of the points pie than a Perez or a Sainz/Gasly/Albon would get, and therefore unnecessarily impact on the WDC race, if not the WCC race. As you say, it's currently the perfect scenario. Not just for Max, but for Red Bull. Why on earth they'd try to rock that boat I don't know. They have the best driver. Keep him happy and he'll win you titles. But I can't shake the feeling we're on a precipice at the moment. One that will probably remove Red Bull from the top over the next few years, or at least it'll give F1 a huge shake-up. The irony is, last time there was a big engine shake-up, Mercedes shot off into the distance and weren't seen again by another team for about 6 years. And who has Max been linked with recently? Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 27 Author Moderator Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Genie said: It then triggers the caveat police suggesting it doesn’t count for reasons. And come on now Adding context to a table of cold numbers, especially when you open with "Daniel Ricciardo did alright" is hardly 'caveat police'. Stats are often slightly deceiving without context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 27 VT Supporter Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Genie said: Nothing disingenuous about it. The points was “everybody has struggled in the second seat” which isn’t the case. The point is it wasn't the second seat for most of that period Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 33 minutes ago, BOF said: And come on now Adding context to a table of cold numbers, especially when you open with "Daniel Ricciardo did alright" is hardly 'caveat police'. Stats are often slightly deceiving without context. People love the stats when they support the argument, but then suggest they are misleading when not. 2 hours ago, BOF said: It'd be interesting to see the 'when' for those points, podiums and wins. I'd wager the crossing point of one line going up and the other going down cross each other fairly quickly during their time together I just googled how the Danny Ricciardo outperforming Max over the 2016,17 and 18 seasons went and there's a nice breakdown on sky sports Quote Ricciardo v Verstappen by year Daniel Ricciardo Max Verstappen 2016 Wins 1 (Malaysia) 1 (Spain) Podiums 8 7 Qualifying head-to-head 11 6 Points 220 191 2017 Wins 1 (Azerbaijan) 2 (Malaysia, Mexico) Podiums 9 4 Qualifying head-to-head 7 13 Points 200 168 2018 Wins 1 (China) 0 Podiums 1 0 Qualifying head-to-head 2 2 Points 37 18 Quote The Australian has outscored Verstappen in every season, and over two years has 457 world championship points compared to Verstappen's 377. He has also notched 18 podium positions in that time, compared to his team-mate's 11. Both drivers have secured three race victories But if looking for points and podiums, as well as smooth overtakes, Ricciardo has proved time and time again that he is Red Bull's best bet There really is no other way to put it, Ricciardo was consistently out performing Max when they were partners acorss 3 different seasons. Yes Max was young and new to the sport, but he was second best over that period. The statement that nobody has managed to compete with his as a team-mate is untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: The point is it wasn't the second seat for most of that period another caveat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 27 VT Supporter Share Posted March 27 1 minute ago, Genie said: another caveat It's not a caveat, it was literally the entire point of the conversation. "Everyone has struggled in that second seat" Because Red Bull quite openly build the car around Max. It's tailored to his style and his wishes. When Max first joined the team he WAS the second seat. They wouldn't have been tailoring the car around him. I think it's actually backing up your point. Max was more inexperienced then so won't have been as good, but the cars would have provided a far more even playing field between him and Danny Ric. But now it's all about Max. They tailor the car to him so much that if Danny Ric went back as a number 2 driver I doubt there's anyway he'd get close to those numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 47 minutes ago, BOF said: But I can't shake the feeling we're on a precipice at the moment. One that will probably remove Red Bull from the top over the next few years, or at least it'll give F1 a huge shake-up. The irony is, last time there was a big engine shake-up, Mercedes shot off into the distance and weren't seen again by another team for about 6 years. And who has Max been linked with recently? It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. We could see Lewis and Newey go to Ferrari, Max to Mercedes. Ricciardo back to Red Bull? At least when Mercedes had such a dominant car they at least had 2 evenly matched drivers. I think that's the key to keeping things interesting. Red Bull previously had the best car but also had Vettel & Webber competing, Marcedes Hamilton and Rosberg (then when Bottas came in it was similar to what we have now with Max and Perez), Brawn with Button and Rubens, Mclaren with Hamilton and Alonso. The worst case scenario is 1 dominant car with 1 dominant driver. This season is almost a right off already with everyone looking to 2025. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 27 VT Supporter Share Posted March 27 2 minutes ago, Genie said: The worst case scenario is 1 dominant car with 1 dominant driver. This season is almost a right off already with everyone looking to 2025. Yep. The only thing giving me hope is these dominant eras always come to an end, and 4-5 years is usually the high end of those runs. Even Schumacher's was only 5 seasons in a row I guess the Mercedes dominance before this latest run from RedBull was 7 or 8 years I think? But at least we had Nico vs Lewis to make that mildly exciting. Hopefully something happens to tip the balance 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 27 VT Supporter Share Posted March 27 I've just finished 2nd in the Austrian GP on my F1 23 career. Max finished 1st and beat me by nearly 20 seconds. He's even making my game boring 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: It's not a caveat, it was literally the entire point of the conversation. "Everyone has struggled in that second seat" Because Red Bull quite openly build the car around Max. It's tailored to his style and his wishes. When Max first joined the team he WAS the second seat. They wouldn't have been tailoring the car around him. I think it's actually backing up your point. Max was more inexperienced then so won't have been as good, but the cars would have provided a far more even playing field between him and Danny Ric. But now it's all about Max. They tailor the car to him so much that if Danny Ric went back as a number 2 driver I doubt there's anyway he'd get close to those numbers I'm not convinced there is that much in the core design of the car to throw off a second driver. I don't think it can be used as an argument for 1 driver consistently out performing another and would be pretty crazy of any team to design a car in such a way. They have lots of driver unique adjustment for seating, pedals, brake bias, wing etc all configurable for the driver. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 27 VT Supporter Share Posted March 27 1 minute ago, Genie said: I'm not convinced there is that much in the core design of the car to throw off a second driver. I don't think it can be used as an argument for 1 driver consistently out performing another and would be pretty crazy of any team to design a car in such a way. They have lots of driver unique adjustment for seating, pedals, brake bias, wing etc all configurable for the driver. The other point, or caveat if you want to call it that, could be that Max is just getting better and better. He was only 19 when he got the RedBull seat. There's every chance he's just really **** good compared to where he was when he was first teammate to Ricciardo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 27 Author Moderator Share Posted March 27 10 minutes ago, Genie said: It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. We could see Lewis and Newey go to Ferrari, Max to Mercedes. Ricciardo back to Red Bull? At least when Mercedes had such a dominant car they at least had 2 evenly matched drivers. I think that's the key to keeping things interesting. Red Bull previously had the best car but also had Vettel & Webber competing, Marcedes Hamilton and Rosberg (then when Bottas came in it was similar to what we have now with Max and Perez), Brawn with Button and Rubens, Mclaren with Hamilton and Alonso. The worst case scenario is 1 dominant car with 1 dominant driver. This season is almost a right off already with everyone looking to 2025. With all the will in the world, I will eat my hat if Ricciardo gets near that Red Bull seat at this point. Tsunoda is closer to it at the moment. I wouldn't even have him as the shortest odds Aussie for that seat. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 Just now, Stevo985 said: The other point, or caveat if you want to call it that, could be that Max is just getting better and better. He was only 19 when he got the RedBull seat. There's every chance he's just really **** good compared to where he was when he was first teammate to Ricciardo Yeah, I don't doubt for a second he has got better over the years that have followed. Just really picking up the point that comes up now and again that nobody in the same car has competed with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 27 Author Moderator Share Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, Genie said: I'm not convinced there is that much in the core design of the car to throw off a second driver. I don't think it can be used as an argument for 1 driver consistently out performing another and would be pretty crazy of any team to design a car in such a way. They have lots of driver unique adjustment for seating, pedals, brake bias, wing etc all configurable for the driver. Yeah you can set cars up, but you can also design them to be inherently this way or that. Meaning they're naturally inclined to do one thing or the other based on their default setting. Which makes it easier to continue down that path with setup, or to go against the grain and try to stop them doing the thing they want to do naturally. I saw Albon explaining it a while back. Max's reactions are so ridiculous, he likes his cars to be extremely twitchy at the front and prone to oversteer. This makes them faster but way more difficult to drive. Making it very difficult for any teammate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaVilla Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, BOF said: But I can't shake the feeling we're on a precipice at the moment. One that will probably remove Red Bull from the top over the next few years, or at least it'll give F1 a huge shake-up. The irony is, last time there was a big engine shake-up, Mercedes shot off into the distance and weren't seen again by another team for about 6 years. And who has Max been linked with recently? what precipice are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 2 minutes ago, MaVilla said: what precipice are you talking about? That Red Bull’s dominance is turning a lot of people off the sport and something is urgently needed to make it interesting again. The powers that be will be under a lot of pressure to do something. Even outside of Red Bull being a bit too good at designing cars there isn’t a huge amount of racing throughout the field, and they keep adding more and more shit tracks for racing to the calendar. It needs some urgent surgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 27 Author Moderator Share Posted March 27 8 minutes ago, MaVilla said: what precipice are you talking about? I just mean the one where Red Bull loses Newey, Horner etc, and possibly Max as a result, and then McGrath knows where it all ends up. Plus the 2026 engine rule change. Basically I don't think people will have to 'suffer' or enjoy Red Bull's uncontested dominance for much longer. Although they may have to endure Max's, depending on how it pans out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaVilla Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 38 minutes ago, Genie said: That Red Bull’s dominance is turning a lot of people off the sport and something is urgently needed to make it interesting again. The powers that be will be under a lot of pressure to do something. Even outside of Red Bull being a bit too good at designing cars there isn’t a huge amount of racing throughout the field, and they keep adding more and more shit tracks for racing to the calendar. It needs some urgent surgery. thats fair, but tbh, when hasnt f1 been one sided in the last decade and had many sh*t tracks? i do see your point, but its been an obvious problem in f1 for years, its just a little worse than normal right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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