TRO Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 16 hours ago, KentVillan said: Mings, Konsa, Kamara, possibly Digne You’re right, but arguably this is a squad depth issue rather than a transfer policy issue. I agree....but out of that 4 from 25( not sure about Digne)....who is pugnacious or Combative?....who is contentious or defiant in the challenge/duel....1 is out long term, and 2 out short term....how can we leave ourselves that short of that type of Character moving forward. I hope you can see my point. I think its both, but in the main, its previous managers, not addressing the issue above. Ironically, it was SG who signed BK, and for me, despite his good games, too many games, I see, he is not an ideal stopper of opponents,but thrives in the free flow..... He needs a more athletic type in the pivot and Dougie needs to move in to the top 3....Dougie has never been a number 6 for me, more a number 8 imo.....but its just opinions.....and of course form changes, tends to adjust those opinions. I hope we don't get comments like....."we don't play that way anymore"......We simply cannot resort to attempting to play free flowing football, before we have won the right too, particularly away from home.....There has to be a reset, and a bit more respect for what the opposition can do. I am not asking for us to go all out defensive....I am merely saying there has to be more respect, for the defensive side of the game, that includes : academy development, recruitment, first team tactics, and philosophy. On Tuesday, We set out to attack, and kept giving the ball away in the process, and we lost the initiative, to a more spirited side, who had more of an appetite to run, unchallenged, I might add.....They "went after us", where we just allowed them to play unhindered....Ambitious teams don't do that. I don't care, how good unai Emery is, we can't play like this and expect to get away with it......Where is our gegen pressing?, where 2/3 players go after opponents, we are lucky if we get one do it and then its a floundering challenge, with little conviction.....we simply don't think we have to stop teams, it seems we just think we can out score them, if only it was, that easy. Edited February 9 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Teale's 'tache Posted February 9 Popular Post Share Posted February 9 3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: The last few pages is why I avoided the site straight after the defeat. A few defeats and fans go nuts. Having said that I am worried that some of the players look knackered and really off it. Also if it’s the same defence they could get torn apart by United. Could be brutal on this site come Sunday night. It’s a tricky time with injuries, fatigue and confidence dropping at home. Some how need to get through this. I agree, also every team will go through a tough spell during the course of a season, no team plays out of their skin 100% of the games they play, not even Man City. I've no idea why some seem to think we should be immune to this... We were always going to have rough spell, the key thing now is to get over it quickly and find some form again before we give ourselves too much to do to catch up. I don't think it looks likely right now, however, things can change very quickly in football, one good result, one bit of luck, one lucky bounce of the ball and everything can change. Once we have that momentum back along with a few players we'll be flying again. Unai knows all of this of course, but you can see he's more frustrated than usual, I'd be concerned if he wasn't, I've no doubt he's working incredibly hard to turn our form around. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 If we won a trophy and finished in the top 4 this season, we *could* do it again next season. We *could* even do better! But by far the most likely prospect is some regression to the mean, and Carragher is not wrong to point that out. If people are imagining that we're going to effortlessly maintain 2ppg and win a trophy every season from here on out, I feel that's likely setting themselves up for disappointment unnecessarily. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 14 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: If we won a trophy and finished in the top 4 this season, we *could* do it again next season. We *could* even do better! But by far the most likely prospect is some regression to the mean, and Carragher is not wrong to point that out. If people are imagining that we're going to effortlessly maintain 2ppg and win a trophy every season from here on out, I feel that's likely setting themselves up for disappointment unnecessarily. The only trophy we could still win, at this point, is the ECL but… if we manage to qualify for CL this season (or even next) why can’t we do it again? Under an elite and highly experienced manager and with savvy/intelligent recruitment? Trophies are too hard to predict and depend on one off games… but sustained results and stronger players gives you a good chance at continually finishing high in the league and we have a manager and coach who has been there and done that many times over… it’s more a question of whether the players can step up to his level and demands but we’ll he able to attract and sign a higher calibre of player, and offload those that don’t cut it, as we reach new heights… The point is… why rule it out? Why… if we achieve something of note and that is hugely positive… should we consider or be resigned to a trend toward regression, decline, negativity? We are building something… we wouldn’t be as restricted as we are now so… I would lean toward pushing forwards rather than falling backwards… Plus, unlike other managers, Unai has shown that he does not need to splash the cash or be extravagant in terms of recruitment to be successful… he is a coach first and foremost and improves players… Monchi is here to help boost and inject some intelligence into our transfer strategy… I think we intend to make key additions and improvements rather than wholesale changes or a glut of signings in one window… Edited February 9 by Jas10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 2 minutes ago, Jas10 said: The only trophy we could still win, at this point, is the ECL but… if we manage to qualify for CL this season (or even next) why can’t we do it again? Under an elite and highly experienced manager and with savvy/intelligent recruitment? Trophies are too hard to predict and depend on one off games… but sustained results and stronger players gives you a good chance at continually finishing high in the league and we have a manager and coach who has been there and done that many times over… it’s more a question of whether the players can step up to his level and demands but we’ll he able to attract and sign a higher calibre of player, and offload those that don’t cut it, as we reach new heights… The point is… why rule it out? Why… if we achieve something of note and that is hugely positive… should we consider or be resigned to a trend toward regression, decline, negativity? We are building something… we wouldn’t be as restricted as we are now so… I would lean toward pushing forwards rather than falling backwards… That’s the optimistic view of course. It seems that for most teams who make the champions league for the first time in a long while it turns out to be a one off and they miss out next season. The pressure of playing in both competitions means you tend not to do as well in either. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 5 minutes ago, Jas10 said: The only trophy we could still win, at this point, is the ECL but… if we manage to qualify for CL this season (or even next) why can’t we do it again? Under an elite and highly experienced manager and with savvy/intelligent recruitment? Trophies are too hard to predict and depend on one off games… but sustained results and stronger players gives you a good chance at continually finishing high in the league and we have a manager and coach who has been there and done that many times over… it’s more a question of whether the players can step up to his level and demands but we’ll he able to attract and sign a higher calibre of player, and offload those that don’t cut it, as we reach new heights… The point is… why rule it out? Why… if we achieve something of note and that is hugely positive… should we consider or be resigned to a trend toward regression, decline, negativity? We are building something… we wouldn’t be as restricted as we are now so… I would lean toward pushing forwards rather than falling backwards… Plus, unlike other managers, Unai has shown that he does not need to splash the cash or be extravagant in terms of recruitment to be successful… he is a coach first and foremost and improves players… Monchi is here to help boost and inject some intelligence into our transfer strategy… I think we intend to make key additions and improvements rather than wholesale changes or a glut of signings in one window… I literally didn't rule it out, in the very post you're quoting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: I literally didn't rule it out, in the very post you're quoting. Didn’t say you did mate… I’m just writing generally… not just in direct response to you. The original article or headline suggests, if we achieve that, that it’s the peak of what we can achieve or a one off… that’s what I disagree with. I say it’s hard to predict anything really and let’s just try to enjoy the ride… but I do feel it will be a case of keep moving forwards rather than… one step forward, two steps back which is just negative and defeatist imo. it’s an interesting debate to have regardless… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 6 minutes ago, LondonLax said: That’s the optimistic view of course. It seems that for most teams who make the champions league for the first time in a long while it turns out to be a one off and they miss out next season. The pressure of playing in both competitions means you tend not to do as well in either. Ok but… maybe this where having an experienced manager (with a proper support team) rather than someone who’s new to the whole thing makes a difference perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 45 minutes ago, TRO said: I agree....but out of that 4 from 25( not sure about Digne)....who is pugnacious or Combative?....who is contentious or defiant in the challenge/duel....1 is out long term, and 2 out short term....how can we leave ourselves that short of that type of Character moving forward. I hope you can see my point. I think its both, but in the main, its previous managers, not addressing the issue above. Ironically, it was SG who signed BK, and for me, despite his good games, too many games, I see, he is not an ideal stopper of opponents,but thrives in the free flow..... He needs a more athletic type in the pivot and Dougie needs to move in to the top 3....Dougie has never been a number 6 for me, more a number 8 imo.....but its just opinions.....and of course form changes, tends to adjust those opinions. I hope we don't get comments like....."we don't play that way anymore"......We simply cannot resort to attempting to play free flowing football, before we have won the right too, particularly away from home.....There has to be a reset, and a bit more respect for what the opposition can do. I am not asking for us to go all out defensive....I am merely saying there has to be more respect, for the defensive side of the game, that includes : academy development, recruitment, first team tactics, and philosophy. On Tuesday, We set out to attack, and kept giving the ball away in the process, and we lost the initiative, to a more spirited side, who had more of an appetite to run, unchallenged, I might add.....They "went after us", where we just allowed them to play unhindered....Ambitious teams don't do that. I don't care, how good unai Emery is, we can't play like this and expect to get away with it......Where is our gegen pressing?, where 2/3 players go after opponents, we are lucky if we get one do it and then its a floundering challenge, with little conviction.....we simply don't think we have to stop teams, it seems we just think we can out score them, if only it was, that easy. Unai has not, still not, and probably will never set up his teams to gengen press. Thats not how he sets up his teams for 95% of matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 52 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: If we won a trophy and finished in the top 4 this season, we *could* do it again next season. We *could* even do better! But by far the most likely prospect is some regression to the mean, and Carragher is not wrong to point that out. If people are imagining that we're going to effortlessly maintain 2ppg and win a trophy every season from here on out, I feel that's likely setting themselves up for disappointment unnecessarily. I don't think regression to the mean is really the appropriate concept here. Unlike most teams who claw their way into Champions League / Europa League places in a single season, we have the budget to cement whatever level we reach. Yes, FFP is a major barrier to that, and yes, if Man Utd get their act together, that will make it significantly harder for challengers to stay there. But I think there's this slightly false idea that Unai is working devil magic to get these players performing at this level. Whereas the reality is that we're making big signings most seasons who significantly improve squad quality. In the last 4 seasons we've signed Watkins, Cash, Martinez, Buendia, Bailey, Digne, Kamara, Moreno, Duran, Tielemans, Torres, Diaby. Ok you might quibble on Cash and Duran, but in the main these are serious first team signings that have improved squad quality. We'll make more signings like that this summer. I think this club is on an upward trajectory, and this isn't a statistical blip. We're in 4th place with a massive injury crisis. If anything the regression to the mean is our best players coming back from injury, and us actually performing *better* than we are at the moment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 43 minutes ago, Teale's 'tache said: I agree, also every team will go through a tough spell during the course of a season, no team plays out of their skin 100% of the games they play, not even Man City. I've no idea why some seem to think we should be immune to this... We were always going to have rough spell, the key thing now is to get over it quickly and find some form again before we give ourselves too much to do to catch up. I don't think it looks likely right now, however, things can change very quickly in football, one good result, one bit of luck, one lucky bounce of the ball and everything can change. Once we have that momentum back along with a few players we'll be flying again. Unai knows all of this of course, but you can see he's more frustrated than usual, I'd be concerned if he wasn't, I've no doubt he's working incredibly hard to turn our form around. That is spot on....but that is not really the issue here. Its the gap between our best form and our worst form, that forms the basis for concern.....Its the huge drops in performance, that has us all running for the Valium. Parts of our game, in the bad games, is shocking....and its not to be expected from a team in our position....so I think that (respectfully) is a bit of a red herring...as are some of the other excuses, like fitness, when they have just had a month off. I am not aiming blame at anyone, because I think many factors are contributing to one big one....."we can't stop opponents , when they are on a gallop"....too many times, the long ball kicker, does so with impunity....that has to be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted February 9 VT Supporter Share Posted February 9 3 minutes ago, TRO said: That is spot on....but that is not really the issue here. Its the gap between our best form and our worst form, that forms the basis for concern.....Its the huge drops in performance, that has us all running for the Valium. Parts of our game, in the bad games, is shocking....and its not to be expected from a team in our position....so I think that (respectfully) is a bit of a red herring...as are some of the other excuses, like fitness, when they have just had a month off. I am not aiming blame at anyone, because I think many factors are contributing to one big one....."we can't stop opponents , when they are on a gallop"....too many times, the long ball kicker, does so with impunity....that has to be addressed. I don't agree that there are many factors. I think if you lined up a graph of 'injuries to first team players' and 'form', they would correlate very nicely. There is pretty much one reason we've seen the dip in form, and that's the injuries to players integral to the way we play. Pau and Konsa being the obvious ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 30 minutes ago, DJBOB said: Unai has not, still not, and probably will never set up his teams to gengen press. Thats not how he sets up his teams for 95% of matches. well, if your telling me, that we are to continue with giving the oppostion, freedom to attack us with impunity, then we have to accept the consequences.....and moving forward, that approach, will not bring trophies....it might bring the odd great game, but not trophies. My point about gegen pressing or counter pressing, was simply my suggestion for stopping opponents, if there is another way, fine.....but if you are saying, we will ignore the intentions of the opposition, and just play our attacking game, is a tad arrogant......Then my expectation will be curtailed accordingly.....I simply do not believe Unai Emery, will ignore the challenge of the opposition per se, long term......It might take him time, to get personnel or new personnel to deal with it......But I believe, he will Edited February 9 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 29 minutes ago, DJBOB said: Unai has not, still not, and probably will never set up his teams to gengen press. Thats not how he sets up his teams for 95% of matches. funny, how the ones that are beating us lately, do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 7 minutes ago, HKP90 said: I don't agree that there are many factors. I think if you lined up a graph of 'injuries to first team players' and 'form', they would correlate very nicely. There is pretty much one reason we've seen the dip in form, and that's the injuries to players integral to the way we play. Pau and Konsa being the obvious ones. I simply, don't believe that. but that is not saying, you are wrong.....However, Konsa played against Newcastle and Man U similar problems still existed. The main issue, right now of defensive ineptitude, emanates primarily from Midfield.....too many goals against, derive from Midfield....that is not saying ALL goals. Edited February 9 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 4 minutes ago, TRO said: funny, how the ones that are beating us lately, do. We were comfortably beating those kinds of teams not that long ago, and the main concern we had was that Unai's Villa couldn't break down a low block. Now it's that Unai's Villa can't deal with an aggressive press. Losing 4 first-choice defenders to injury + not having squad depth to keep Kamara/Luiz/McGinn fresh may be a bigger issue than Unai's tactics? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teale's 'tache Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 minute ago, TRO said: That is spot on....but that is not really the issue here. Its the gap between our best form and our worst form, that forms the basis for concern.....Its the huge drops in performance, that has us all running for the Valium. Parts of our game, in the bad games, is shocking....and its not to be expected from a team in our position....so I think that (respectfully) is a bit of a red herring...as are some of the other excuses, like fitness, when they have just had a month off. I am not aiming blame at anyone, because I think many factors are contributing to one big one....."we can't stop opponents , when they are on a gallop"....too many times, the long ball kicker, does so with impunity....that has to be addressed. I think there are numerous factors at play here, and there have been many high-scoring defeats this season of very good teams, we aren't alone in this. It seems when we, Newcastle, Spurs, Brighton etc. lose, it's often a big loss. When it goes wrong it really goes wrong for all of us, and that's because we all play high-risk tactics. We have to take more risks to compete with those above us. I think there's also a confidence issue, some mental fatigue could be playing a part, obviously missing big players for any amount of time will cause issues. The inexperience of being in this position may well be contributing as well (for the players, not Emery). Teams have changed how they play against us and we have to adapt to that. Notably, we seem to be catching less offside, not unexpected with the constant change of personnel at the back, but it also teams are a bit wiser to the pitfalls now. I also think Emery has got a few things wrong recently, and he's admitted as much himself, maybe a bit of overthinking has been going on. We seem to be quite selective in the opponents we deem worthwhile to press further up the pitch, it's all risk-reward, but get it wrong and you can look a bit silly. I'm not overly concerned, getting Torres back will be a big boost, as will getting Konsa back, and Diaby seems like he might be on the cusp of getting back to some form too. Adapting to the current circumstances is a lot easier when you have your better players available. I also think Emery will settle down a bit once this blip is over. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas10 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 2 minutes ago, TRO said: That is spot on....but that is not really the issue here. Its the gap between our best form and our worst form, that forms the basis for concern.....Its the huge drops in performance, that has us all running for the Valium. Parts of our game, in the bad games, is shocking....and its not to be expected from a team in our position....so I think that (respectfully) is a bit of a red herring...as are some of the other excuses, like fitness, when they have just had a month off. I am not aiming blame at anyone, because I think many factors are contributing to one big one....."we can't stop opponents , when they are on a gallop"....too many times, the long ball kicker, does so with impunity....that has to be addressed. I’m going to he honest here and admit that… I think both Dougie and Bouba are both prone to occasional (not often/regular) complacency or being too relaxed at times… they are both exceptional players and I rate both of them very highly but… not at the point or not good enough (yet?) to just “coast” in games… and Bouba tends to make more costly mistakes or lose possession cheaply (again, occasionally) whereas Dougie just has quieter or more passive games… however, when the attitude and approach is right… and the focus and determination is there… they look formidable (amongst the very best in the league) and help us run rings around the opposition… we also have to take into account that playing successive games in a short space of time will cause a degree of tiredness and it’s hard for any player to be at or near 100% in every game or consistently… And this is not something that is unique to us or our individual players… I think it happens a lot… I may be wrong but it’s just something I feel like I’ve picked up on or noticed since they’ve been with us together… but they’ve been brilliant for the most part and are essential to us and this team going forwards… I hope they’re here for the long term and keep developing and improving with us… they’re probably not the only “culprits” in that sense either but maybe it stands out because of how integral they are… I’m just wondering whether some of our players might be getting a little carried away or “buying into the hype”… maybe not, but it’s seems like something worth considering… we can’t afford to get ahead of ourselves… there is a lot more work to be done… As we know, the league is highly competitive and you will get caught out if there are lapses in concentration and mentality… a degree of aggression and tenacity is required too (which is why McGinn is so important to us but, again, he can’t do it in every game and everyone has to pitch in)… It’s another side of the game that is really important… application and attitude… I don’t think you can afford to be arrogant or feel superior unless you’ve had consistent success… not sure if any of this makes sense just trying to blurt out what is in my head here… You can have all the talent in the world… but it requires application and the right mentality to thrive… and we’ve seen us get that formula right, many times (we have properly demolished some teams)… we saw it last season and we’ve seen it again now… it’s why we’re so high in the league… it has to be a constant though… maybe a few humbling defeats will have corrected that and refocused us… I hope so… I’m sure Unai drills the same sort of message into the players (he often talks about being humble and generally plays down our standing and progress in public… which is wise… but at the same time, it’s obvious that he has a fire and determination and no lack of ambition)… it’s on the players to assert themselves in this manner… As you say, we are a work in progress and the players are learning…we can’t expect not to stumble along the way… but I’m confident that we’ll get it right and become even more consistent and formidable.. I think we should be patient… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 2 minutes ago, KentVillan said: We were comfortably beating those kinds of teams not that long ago, and the main concern we had was that Unai's Villa couldn't break down a low block. Now it's that Unai's Villa can't deal with an aggressive press. Losing 4 first-choice defenders to injury + not having squad depth to keep Kamara/Luiz/McGinn fresh may be a bigger issue than Unai's tactics? That was one or two games, it wasn't a major issue, because very few teams do that. I accept the emboldened bit, but that is one of the factors, I consider to be an issue. Losing 4 first team defenders, is not ideal, but Mings has been missing all season, Pau is more noted for his progressive passes, and Konsa has only just become injured, he played against Newcastle, which showed similar deficiencies. I am not blaming Unai's tactics.....but if you are telling me we can afford, to ignore the oppositions actions, buy not stopping their intiatives, Then we are in for a big shock, mark my words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 23 minutes ago, TRO said: well, if your telling me, that we are to continue with giving the oppostion, freedom to attack us with impunity, then we have to accept the consequences.....and moving forward, that approach, will not bring trophies....it might bring the odd great game, but not trophies. My point about gegen pressing or counter pressing, was simply my suggestion for stopping opponents, if there is another way, fine.....but if you are saying, we will ignore the intentions of the opposition, and just play our attacking game, is a tad arrogant......Then my expectation will be curtailed accordingly.....I simply do not believe Unai Emery, will ignore the challenge of the opposition per se, long term......It might take him time, to get personnel or new personnel to deal with it......But I believe, he will 22 minutes ago, TRO said: funny, how the ones that are beating us lately, do. I mean that is your opinion but you'd be ignoring a decade of data of how Unai sets up his teams. He does not employ a gengenpress or a heavy counter press. We have a full season's worth of data (about 44 matches) that have Villa about 3rd in the table with a squad value worth a fraction of the clubs around us. But a few losses and people are ready to jump ship - it's the Villa way. Edited February 9 by DJBOB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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